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#1 Yosh

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 06:11 PM

Right, so, apparently this forum doesn't like the tier list that random SF goober pasted from SF. Goober himself suggested that we do our own and not base it on "LOL SPEED LOL" so we probably should. (Yeah I know he said speed and efficiency, but "efficiency" is obviously meant to be ambiguous)

Anyway, we could start this with suggestions for who goes where and why, but I think I'll just make a list and we'll edit it. Bear in mind, I'm no expert, so don't assume I'll defend against any changes you suggest. Let's try to keep flaming and Ad Hominem to a minimum.

I for one will consider the following points for value on this tier list: Base Stats/Growths/Stat Caps, Class, Skills, Play Time, Supports and Weapons.

The reason Speed (i.e. "how fast can I beat this game" is not being considered in this tier list is because such a challenge, while valuable as a challenge to one's strategic abilities, is also too specific, good for one playthrough, maybe more if you add additional challenges. It's not something you do on a first playthrough of any difficulty, generally speaking, and the only real point of it is to prove how great you are as a player by adding hardships. Playing for fun and playing for realism are about the most common ways to play, with tacticians choosing their strategy based on many factors, not the least of which is the agenda of the tactician him/herself. So my "points for value" is based around efficiency in general, not efficiency in speed.)




Top
----------------------------
Jill
Soren


High
----------------------------
Oscar
Kieran
Zihark
Mia
Nephenee


Upper-Mid
----------------------------
Marcia
Oscar
Boyd
Volke
Ilyana
Rolf
Calill
Titania


Mid
----------------------------
Muarim
Lethe
Mordecai
Mist
Makalov
Astrid
Tanith
Reyson
Gatrie
Brom
Geoffrey
Ranulf
Tormod
Stefan


Lower-Mid
----------------------------
Haar
Largo
Sothe
Tauroneo
Rhys
Shinon
Devdan


Low
----------------------------
Janaff
Elincia
Ulki
Nasir
Lucia
Ena
Bastian


Unranked
----------------------------
Ike

Yosh on comparing Final Fantasy characters: "Balthier would kill Tidus with a ship. WHILE smuggling 20 kilos of uncut

cocaine from Bolivia and fucking Fran on the starboard deck."

NITRO/DURF/THUNK/LUNE/SEH/MIDIAN/DRSEXSTIX/JARLAXLE/KALEIDO/YOSHIQUACK/OMEGABLASTER/BYOXXYL

MATSUO/SMILEYTHEJOKER/MOONSTRUCKTIMBERWOLF/PETUH/GRANDSAGE/BONERSTORM/DATH/NOVEMBER


#2 byoxxyl

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 06:16 PM

I feel like Sothe could be lower, purely because he doesn't promote and is hard to level.

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#3 Yosh

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 06:24 PM

I placed him mid because of the usefulness of his class (frankly, I can think of two occasions when, for my personal strategy, both Sothe and Volke MUST be used) and because when leveled, his end stats will be nearly as good as a high level promoted unit in general, and easily good enough to survive and deal damage while he's at it. Obv. if the general consensus is he need to go a tier lower that's fine, but I thought mid is a good place for him to be.

However, I can see the logic in the argument that just because he's necessary for a few spots and is viable to use in battle SOMETIMES, doesn't mean he's mid-tier. Whatcha doods think?

Yosh on comparing Final Fantasy characters: "Balthier would kill Tidus with a ship. WHILE smuggling 20 kilos of uncut

cocaine from Bolivia and fucking Fran on the starboard deck."

NITRO/DURF/THUNK/LUNE/SEH/MIDIAN/DRSEXSTIX/JARLAXLE/KALEIDO/YOSHIQUACK/OMEGABLASTER/BYOXXYL

MATSUO/SMILEYTHEJOKER/MOONSTRUCKTIMBERWOLF/PETUH/GRANDSAGE/BONERSTORM/DATH/NOVEMBER


#4 Erif

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:08 PM

There are a couple of problems.

Nephenee, as much as I adore her, is not top. Bottom of high at best, but most likely upper-mid. Same thing with Soren. Jill doesn't get top of top either, but she's prolly somewhere in that area.

Ike deserves top. Mia deserves mid or low upper mid.

Boyd is top. Oscar should be right before or right after Kieran. Same with Illyana, she's argueably better, are as good as Soren. Marcia high. Volke a little lower, and lol, Rolf much much lower. Low perhaps. And Lethe should probably be mid. Volke slightly lower.

Astrid, Tanith > Makalov. Tanith should be near Marcia, and Astrid top of mid/bottom of upper mid. Putting Titania that low is insulting, she's high. Reyson is also high. Geoffry lower.

Sothe = shit. First, there's absolutely no necessity for two thieves in this game, and since you get Volke at a much earlier chapter, and the fact that he can promote, Sothe usefulness drops even lower. He's also locked in with knives, so he can be of much use in battle. His 20/20 average stats aren't even that good. Low.

I dunno why everyone dislikes Stefan so much. His averages are comparable to those of Zihark (they're both better than Mia's, too) if you think about it.

Zihark 20/20
HP - 44.95
Str - 24
Mag - 7.35
Skl - 29
Spd - 30
Lck - 17.6
Def - 17.7
Res -7.8

Stefan 20/20
HP - 46.4
Str - 24
Mag - 10.4
Skl - 29
Spd - 30
Lck - 8
Def - 16.2
Res - 12.6

The only real advantage Zihark has over Stefan is Luck, but then again, Stefan has a nice advantage in Resistance, five stats to be exact. Zihark comes four chapters earlier, but at level 10, and Stefan is already a level eight prepromote, and he has high con. I mean, I can see why some might argue Zihark > Stefan, but I see no reason to put Zihark at high and Stefan at the bottom of Mid.

But srsly Stefan > Mia.

IMO Tormod should be lower, but I just know no one will agree with me. :/

lol why is Rhys so low! Mist upper mid and Rhys lower-mid? wut?
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#5 Yosh

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:26 PM

1. Nephenee might go down to top of high tier. But if she's not top tier, who is? Jill is totally deserving, as is soren. If I followed your suggestions there wouldnt BE a top tier.

2. because, to follow your second point, ike doesn't deserve top tier. while he's a god for the latter half of the game, he spends the first half being mediocre at best. over the entire course of the game he's about high tier. i mean, we can argue this, i guess, but...

3. boyd's not top. axes are cool but don't make up for his statistical weaknesses, nor that he's competing with better axe-users with better mobility.

4. Oscar can't hang with Kieran. I'm different form most people in that I don't suck oscar's balls like everyone else. he's not very good.

5. Ilyana arguably better than Soren? gtfo. Ilyana's doing her best to stay on top of calill. soren blows them both away.

6. rolf being sent super low is just appealing to trends. fact is he's a good unit. available much of the game, doesn't require nearly as much babying as people say. Stats are amazing, promo skill is also awesome. He can't counter up close, but it's not like he;s going to need to very often, and that make shim useful as a meatshield under the right circumstances as well. I'm not saying he;s great but people saying he's low are just going with the trend of speed-tier list debaters.

7. Reyson appeals to a particular strategy. if you're using it, he;s necessary. If you're not, he's worthless. mid tier is perfect for him.

8. Titania has her uses, but when you AREN'T ARGUING FOR SPEED, as I've made it clear we're doing, her usefulness drops dramatically. Make me a good argument for why she deserves XP and time spent on her above the other mid-tiers if you want her raised. I can see her going upper mid but definitely not high or top. The only thing she has going for her is axes and mobility.

9. Lethe should have been mid, I did this as an edit of the SF list. Wasn't paying attention.

10. Tanith isn't near Marcia. A tier below is perfectly fine imo. Although, I didn't order this accurately in that I didn't place, say, ike at the top of "high" meaning better than the guy below him. I just threw them into general tiers, knowing this would be heavily edited as we went on.

11. For now I'm dropping Sothe to lower-mid, but not low.

12. Stefan is a cut above the other prepromotes, but he's not top SM. Statistically, Zihark and Mia are superior, Both have superior play time, and superior Supports. Stefan's bad luck hurts a lot more than you think. What he DOES have going for him is starting with Astra and being at a good level already. But the odds of the playe rhaving not used Zihark or Mia are pretty low, and if they have, it's not worth switching. If anything, I'd consider lowering Zihark and Mia, but not raising Stefan.

13. Mist is someone else I forgot to move... Mist is Mid. Rhys is lower mid because he competes with Mist as a pure healer, he can't double anything and dies instantly. Hard to raise without bexp (which results in a shit rhys with worse than average speed). And though he cna do more damage as an attacker than Mist can, he;s still not viable as he can't hit twice and you've already got plenty of better magic attackers. Rhys is just outclassed.

Yosh on comparing Final Fantasy characters: "Balthier would kill Tidus with a ship. WHILE smuggling 20 kilos of uncut

cocaine from Bolivia and fucking Fran on the starboard deck."

NITRO/DURF/THUNK/LUNE/SEH/MIDIAN/DRSEXSTIX/JARLAXLE/KALEIDO/YOSHIQUACK/OMEGABLASTER/BYOXXYL

MATSUO/SMILEYTHEJOKER/MOONSTRUCKTIMBERWOLF/PETUH/GRANDSAGE/BONERSTORM/DATH/NOVEMBER


#6 Metronome

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:31 PM

Bumping all the endgame units seems a bit harsh. Is there no one that is consistently terminally useless, even though you get them earlier?
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#7 Yosh

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:33 PM

translation pls. don't know what you're trying to say.

ALso, thinking of correcting the Janaff/Ulki lowest tier nonsense. They're both pretty good units, some of the best among the laguz. Am I wrong here, is there something I don't know?

Yosh on comparing Final Fantasy characters: "Balthier would kill Tidus with a ship. WHILE smuggling 20 kilos of uncut

cocaine from Bolivia and fucking Fran on the starboard deck."

NITRO/DURF/THUNK/LUNE/SEH/MIDIAN/DRSEXSTIX/JARLAXLE/KALEIDO/YOSHIQUACK/OMEGABLASTER/BYOXXYL

MATSUO/SMILEYTHEJOKER/MOONSTRUCKTIMBERWOLF/PETUH/GRANDSAGE/BONERSTORM/DATH/NOVEMBER


#8 byoxxyl

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:10 PM

Nephenee is a beast.
Also, Ulki/Janaff definitely deserve to be higher.

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#9 Metronome

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:39 PM

I'm saying is there any unit so trashy, that you can't use them at any point, so the fact you only get Nasir/Ena/Royals towards the endgame doesn't make them less useless then the unit that is unusable at any time?
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#10 Yosh

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:44 PM

not really. ANYONE'S useable.

Yosh on comparing Final Fantasy characters: "Balthier would kill Tidus with a ship. WHILE smuggling 20 kilos of uncut

cocaine from Bolivia and fucking Fran on the starboard deck."

NITRO/DURF/THUNK/LUNE/SEH/MIDIAN/DRSEXSTIX/JARLAXLE/KALEIDO/YOSHIQUACK/OMEGABLASTER/BYOXXYL

MATSUO/SMILEYTHEJOKER/MOONSTRUCKTIMBERWOLF/PETUH/GRANDSAGE/BONERSTORM/DATH/NOVEMBER


#11 Erif

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:47 PM

1. Nephenee might go down to top of high tier. But if she's not top tier, who is? Jill is totally deserving, as is soren. If I followed your suggestions there wouldnt BE a top tier.

Nephenee doesn't deserve top because she starts off like Ike and doesn't end as well. Her first few levels are a bitch because she can only only do shitty damage with here iron lance even if she doubles. She comes slightly underleveled, too. Again, I love Nephenee, but she doesn't get top, she gets high. And I may be mistaken, but I don't remember here having any good supports.

I would think Soren would be high, but I'm not gonna bother going there.

2. because, to follow your second point, ike doesn't deserve top tier. while he's a god for the latter half of the game, he spends the first half being mediocre at best. over the entire course of the game he's about high tier. i mean, we can argue this, i guess, but...

lol, exactly one of the reasons why he deserves top. And what? He's not mediocre for the entire first half of the game? He's he's only bad before he reaches around level 10-12, then he gets good. He's just amazing after he promotes. Not to mention his amazing supports, he's got some of the best in the game. And what was the skill called, Aither? Haxhaxhaxhaxhaxhax

3. boyd's not top. axes are cool but don't make up for his statistical weaknesses, nor that he's competing with better axe-users with better mobility.

Boyd is at least high. Srsly, sixty HP and thirty Stregnth? He completely wrecks bows. What statistical weaknesses are you referring too? His defense?

4. Oscar can't hang with Kieran. I'm different form most people in that I don't suck oscar's balls like everyone else. he's not very good.

Your joking, roight? He's great. Have you seen their stat averages? The only thing Kieran has over oscar is one puny health point and two Strength, which is the only thing that matters. Oscar has a point above Kieran in every other stat, except Defense, which they're tied for. What about Oscar's superior playtime? His broken support with Ike? But wait, I know what your response is.

"But Kieran gets axes!" Oh big time, he get's axes, which Oscar can get when he promotes!

I can see why you might feel Kieran is better than Oscar, but there's no reason for them to not be right next to each other. And they might both deserve top, now that I think of it.

5. Ilyana arguably better than Soren? gtfo. Ilyana's doing her best to stay on top of calill. soren blows them both away.

gyppy? gyppy where are you dearie? :/

6. rolf being sent super low is just appealing to trends. fact is he's a good unit. available much of the game, doesn't require nearly as much babying as people say. Stats are amazing, promo skill is also awesome. He can't counter up close, but it's not like he;s going to need to very often, and that make shim useful as a meatshield under the right circumstances as well. I'm not saying he;s great but people saying he's low are just going with the trend of speed-tier list debaters.

lol he requires a shitload of babying. A shit load. Seeing how his stats are comparable to Astrid, who is twice as easy to train because of Paragon, and has much more mobility, and isn't a complete pussy, there's no reason for him to be upper mid. I say lower-mid at best.

7. Reyson appeals to a particular strategy. if you're using it, he;s necessary. If you're not, he's worthless. mid tier is perfect for him.

wat? What strategy is this? Reyson is immensely useful, hence why dancers are usually put near the top portion of Fire Emblem tier lists. I don't understand how he's worthless, please explain.

8. Titania has her uses, but when you AREN'T ARGUING FOR SPEED, as I've made it clear we're doing, her usefulness drops dramatically. Make me a good argument for why she deserves XP and time spent on her above the other mid-tiers if you want her raised. I can see her going upper mid but definitely not high or top. The only thing she has going for her is axes and mobility.

lol, doesn't matter, that doesn't illude that fact that Titania is on of the best units you have for arguably 3/4 of the game. Hell, you can just start using her when your units start promoting and she still has her uses. Top is probably a stretch, but high isn't very unreasonable. At least top of upper-mid.

10. Tanith isn't near Marcia. A tier below is perfectly fine imo. Although, I didn't order this accurately in that I didn't place, say, ike at the top of "high" meaning better than the guy below him. I just threw them into general tiers, knowing this would be heavily edited as we went on.

12. Stefan is a cut above the other prepromotes, but he's not top SM. Statistically, Zihark and Mia are superior, Both have superior play time, and superior Supports. Stefan's bad luck hurts a lot more than you think. What he DOES have going for him is starting with Astra and being at a good level already. But the odds of the playe rhaving not used Zihark or Mia are pretty low, and if they have, it's not worth switching. If anything, I'd consider lowering Zihark and Mia, but not raising Stefan.

I don't understand how you say stuff like Zihark and Mia are statistically superior, when I just explained that Stefan and Zihark have very comparable stats, and they both have better stats than Mia. I also just explained that while those two have superior playtime, Stefan comes at a a great level, which will most likely be superior to Zihark and possibly superior to Mia's. I also know he has bad luck, which is why I said he might not necessarily be better than Zihark. And that last statement is pretty bull, lol.

13. Mist is someone else I forgot to move... Mist is Mid. Rhys is lower mid because he competes with Mist as a pure healer, he can't double anything and dies instantly. Hard to raise without bexp (which results in a shit rhys with worse than average speed). And though he cna do more damage as an attacker than Mist can, he;s still not viable as he can't hit twice and you've already got plenty of better magic attackers. Rhys is just outclassed.

He starts earlier, so while mist comes in at level 1 as a healer, Rhys has already got a significant level advantage on her. So that means he'll be promoting earlier. They both die instantly. As a healer, he's better. Neither of them are great fighters, so they should be around the same place.

Btw, Mordecai > Lethe > Muarim. Mordecai might be upper-mid.
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#12 Metronome

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:36 PM

Why is this topic just like a nicer version of the serene's chump's? I have a headache now.
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#13 byoxxyl

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:38 PM

This one has WAY less flames.

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#14 Metronome

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:40 PM

I said except nicer... but still.
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#15 byoxxyl

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:42 PM

This tier list is also MUCH more acceptable.
AND he's willing to change it.

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#16 Metronome

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:00 AM

Wait... all that and he conceded nothing? A giant durp among derps. But our dynamic one here is still going to cause headaches. At least it's not pointless.
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#17 byoxxyl

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:20 AM

Yes.

Boyd should be High Tier, he's a freaking beast.

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#18 Yosh

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 01:20 AM

You don't NEED me to concede anything... I'm here to argue like anyone else. Byo can edit the OP. Krevin could too. It's not MY tier list, it's ours.

Anyway, in response to Poc, who's actually participating...

1. I'm just not so into putting Ike on top just because of Aether. If he didn't have Aether and Ragnell, he wouldn't be so amazing, but I guess that doesn't really matter. Anyway, as it comes to Nephenee, I'd argue that she is not weak for long when you get her, certainly strengthening up quicker than Kieran, whom you don't seem to have a problem with. Anyway, yeah, I can see her moving down to high tier.

2. You can see Soren as high? Look, his only weak point is supports, dude has absurd spd/mag, and since he's a magic unit he's not exactly competing with the likes of Kieran/Titania/Ike, he's competing for a space on your team with Ilyana/Rhys/Tormod/Calill, none of whom can compare. Ilyana can't get spd or reliable mag, rhys makes ilyana look like jackie joyner-kersee. Tormod is viable if you want to baby him, but is absent for over half the game. Calill is totally viable but despite her good weap levels, she doesn't have great supports IIRC and she's stuck with knives which are completely worthless. I'm not even gonna mention bastian. Soren is THE cadillac of magic units in this game, and he's a great one.

3. I just don't see how a guy who spends the first half of the game needing to be protected but manages to become beastly the latter half of the game deserves top. But if that's the general consensus, I gotta admit I don't have much of an argument against it....

4. Boyd, what statistical weakness? Are you high?

Average Stats at 20/0
HP 43.5/40 Str 17.8 Mag 0.9 Skl 13 Spd 14.1 Luck 10.3 Def 9.5 Res 4.5
Average Stats at 20/10
HP 52.75 Str 25.2 Mag 2.35 Skl 19.5 Spd 19.15 Luck 13.45 Def 13.75 Res 8.75
Average Stats at 20/20
HP 60.25/60 Str 31.2/30 Mag 2.85 Skl 24.5 Spd 23.65 Luck 16.95 Def 16.25 Res 11.25

Sure, once you get all the way to 20/20 he's not bad, but for most of the game he's going to be unable to double attack reliably, have low luck, weak defense, and pitiful resistance. His skill sur eisn't helping to make up for it, either. Yeah, tons of HP... that he loses QUICK. And he can't be counted on to always hit his target.

5. Sure, Oscar gets axes, when he finally fucking promotes, and throws away the triangle attack to get 'em. By that point he'll be smashing enemies real nice with his iron or steel axe, while Kieran is fucking everything up with silver axes. Odds your Oscar will be able to use GOOD axes by endgame? Only if you try really hard. Oscar's not bad, and being mounted counts for something, having okay stats isn't bad either, but it's not like he's a SM and can say "sure i got no axes, but I crit all the time and dodge everything". It kinda comes down to who you're gonna use, and Kieran's better. Titania is probably better too. How many pallies are you gonna field? It's like telling me Brom's great because he's not THAT much worse than Gatrie.

6. Titania is one of the best units you have until your guys start hitting 15-20. Not 3/4 of the game. After that, her value drops dramatically. It's not like her stats are worth giving a shit about, either, I mean the bitch's avg. 20/20 (THAT'S ALL THE WAY, LOL) STR is 20! At least the rest of her stats are decently well-rounded, but nothing special. jesus.

7. Reyson is useful if you want to sacrifice a fighter in your group to use him. He requires constant attention and protection, so if you think everyone's using him, you're wrong. I, for one, rarely ever use him.

8. Okay, let me go into the Stefan thing. Not like I haven't discussed this a million times with a million losers that like green hair and rainbow-colored outfits.

SM Stat Caps
HP 60 Str 24 Mag 20 Skl 29 Spd 30 Luck 40 Def 22 Res 23 (male)
HP 60 Str 22 Mag 20 Skl 29 Spd 30 Luck 30 Def 22 Res 25 (female)


Zihark
Average Stats at 20/0
HP 30.5 Str 14.5 Mag 3.5 Skl 18 Spd 21/20 Luck 10 Def 10 Res 2
Average Stats at 20/10
HP 39.45 Str 19.55 Mag 7.75 Skl 24.5 Spd 27.4 Luck 13.6 Def 14.7 Res 5.8
Average Stats at 20/20
HP 44.95 Str 24.05/24 Mag 10.25 Skl 29.5/29 Spd 33.4/30 Luck 17.6
Def 17.7 Res 7.8

Mia
Average Stats at 20/0
HP 28 Str 12.6 Mag 4.2 Skl 16.3 Spd 21.4/20 Luck 12.3 Def 9.8 Res 5.5
Average Stats at 20/10
HP 36.5 Str 17.2 Mag 8.9 Skl 22.35 Spd 27.4 Luck 16.35 Def 13.6 Res 9.75
Average Stats at 20/20
HP 41.5 Str 21.2 Mag 10.25 Skl 26.85 Spd 33.4/30 Luck 20.85 Def 15.6 Res 12.25


Stefan
Average Stats at 20/10
HP 39.4 Str 20 Mag 8.4 Skl 27.8 Spd 26.1 Luck 5.5 Def 12.7 Res 9.6
Average Stats at 20/20
HP 46.4 Str 25/24 Mag 10.4 Skl 31.8/29 Spd 31.6/30 Luck 8 Def 16.2 Res 12.6


Right, so. Stefan's got a nice little lead in STR and a decent little bit in HP and SKL, but LCK is important, and a MASSIVE weakness in that department isn't just something to gloss over. Fact - his stats are weaker than both Zihark and Mia. Noob players like to act like Mia's 3 or 4 less STR totally matters, but thanks to her LCK she's practically unhittable and a crit master, plus with Gamble she guarantees crits. Meanwhile Stefan has got raw stats but none of the little perks. He's good, but he competes with better and that's why he's not in a high tier.

9. Yeah, Rhys has a massive level lead of like 4 fights. Beginning fights. But then Mist is pretty much necessary to beat the black knight, her promo is mounted, and her stats are better because she's not getting double attacked throughout the ENTIRE GAME. (Just half of it) Really though, it's a giant douche/turd sandwich situation, and mist is just not quite as bad.

Yosh on comparing Final Fantasy characters: "Balthier would kill Tidus with a ship. WHILE smuggling 20 kilos of uncut

cocaine from Bolivia and fucking Fran on the starboard deck."

NITRO/DURF/THUNK/LUNE/SEH/MIDIAN/DRSEXSTIX/JARLAXLE/KALEIDO/YOSHIQUACK/OMEGABLASTER/BYOXXYL

MATSUO/SMILEYTHEJOKER/MOONSTRUCKTIMBERWOLF/PETUH/GRANDSAGE/BONERSTORM/DATH/NOVEMBER


#19 Metronome

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 01:40 AM

You mean top tier?
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#20 Erif

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 03:50 AM

2. You can see Soren as high? Look, his only weak point is supports, dude has absurd spd/mag, and since he's a magic unit he's not exactly competing with the likes of Kieran/Titania/Ike, he's competing for a space on your team with Ilyana/Rhys/Tormod/Calill, none of whom can compare. Ilyana can't get spd or reliable mag, rhys makes ilyana look like jackie joyner-kersee. Tormod is viable if you want to baby him, but is absent for over half the game. Calill is totally viable but despite her good weap levels, she doesn't have great supports IIRC and she's stuck with knives which are completely worthless. I'm not even gonna mention bastian. Soren is THE cadillac of magic units in this game, and he's a great one.

k

3. I just don't see how a guy who spends the first half of the game needing to be protected but manages to become beastly the latter half of the game deserves top. But if that's the general consensus, I gotta admit I don't have much of an argument against it....

Let me put it this way: Ike is only bad for about ten chapters. After that he starts getting good, and after a couple more chapters he gets better. By fifteen he should be very good, because he should be around 18-20. When he promotes in the next two chapters. he's arguably one of the best FE characters of all time.

4. Boyd, what statistical weakness? Are you high?

Average Stats at 20/0
HP 43.5/40 Str 17.8 Mag 0.9 Skl 13 Spd 14.1 Luck 10.3 Def 9.5 Res 4.5
Average Stats at 20/10
HP 52.75 Str 25.2 Mag 2.35 Skl 19.5 Spd 19.15 Luck 13.45 Def 13.75 Res 8.75
Average Stats at 20/20
HP 60.25/60 Str 31.2/30 Mag 2.85 Skl 24.5 Spd 23.65 Luck 16.95 Def 16.25 Res 11.25

Sure, once you get all the way to 20/20 he's not bad, but for most of the game he's going to be unable to double attack reliably, have low luck, weak defense, and pitiful resistance. His skill sur eisn't helping to make up for it, either. Yeah, tons of HP... that he loses QUICK. And he can't be counted on to always hit his target.

I maybe be taking this from personal experience, but Boyd 1HKOs soooooo much, that worrying about his low defenses usually isn't a problem. Heck, almost all off the lance users he's taking out in one hit and/or dodging, and most of the axe users have just as bad defenses as him. And don't forget, he wrecks with bows. =D
K. I can see why he isn't top, but high at least.


5. Sure, Oscar gets axes, when he finally fucking promotes, and throws away the triangle attack to get 'em. By that point he'll be smashing enemies real nice with his iron or steel axe, while Kieran is fucking everything up with silver axes. Odds your Oscar will be able to use GOOD axes by endgame? Only if you try really hard. Oscar's not bad, and being mounted counts for something, having okay stats isn't bad either, but it's not like he's a SM and can say "sure i got no axes, but I crit all the time and dodge everything". It kinda comes down to who you're gonna use, and Kieran's better. Titania is probably better too. How many pallies are you gonna field? It's like telling me Brom's great because he's not THAT much worse than Gatrie.

First off, I'm gonna start with the latter half of this paragraph.

OSCAR AND KIERAN HAVE THE SAME FOOKIN STATS MEN! Oscar and Kieran's averages are nearly the same. Oscar has better supports. He also has better playtime, and judging his mobility, he'll most likely be at a slightly higher level than Kieran. That means the the only advantage he has over Oscar is axes.

Axes. Slightly more powerful but slightly less reliable. Do they really make that much of a difference?

To illustrate this point, I'm going to compare Nephenee, who you put on top, and Oscar, who you put in upper-mid.
Oscar 20/20
HP - 48.8
Str - 24.2
Mag - 10.2
Skl - 26
Spd - 25.2
Lck - 15.8
Def - 22.6
Res - 13.8

Nephenee 20/20
HP - 43.6
Str - 22.8
Mag - 9.4
Skl - 28
Spd - 26
Lck - 14
Def - 22.2
Res - 13

Let's make a quick comparison. HP? Goes to Oscar. Str? Oscar. Skill? Alright, this time Nephenee. Spd? Again, Nephenee, but barely. Luck? Oscar, barely. Defense? Tied. Resistance is also tied.

So as you can see, Nephenee has stats comparable to those of Oscar, if not worse, depending on preference of play. So lets take other factors into account. Oscar has some broken supports, we both know that. Oscar has superior playtime and is easier to level. He also has much more mobility, like all cavalry. Plus he gets a more diverse weapon pool when he promotes. So Oscar has Supports+Playtime+Mobility+Weapon Pool+ easier to train over Nephenee. Oscar is obviously better than Nephenee.

Now let's bring this back to Kieran. You see how Nephenee plays, she's a beast. She does a shitton of damage and also doubles. Only with lances though. And she has two less Str than Oscar. Oscar is doing plenty with lances, and he's doubling. So is Jill. Axes aren't needed; they may be more powerful, but they aren't necessary.

Hence why Kieran and Oscar should be top, and Nephenee high.

6. Titania is one of the best units you have until your guys start hitting 15-20. Not 3/4 of the game. After that, her value drops dramatically. It's not like her stats are worth giving a shit about, either, I mean the bitch's avg. 20/20 (THAT'S ALL THE WAY, LOL) STR is 20! At least the rest of her stats are decently well-rounded, but nothing special. jesus.

I'll type this one up in the morning, too tired and lazy at the moment.

7. Reyson is useful if you want to sacrifice a fighter in your group to use him. He requires constant attention and protection, so if you think everyone's using him, you're wrong. I, for one, rarely ever use him.


Lol, I don't know why one wouldn't ever use him, he's incredibly useful. He's just like any archer or frail magic user, as long as you keep it away from up close physical damage, it will handle magic and arrows itself.

8. Okay, let me go into the Stefan thing. Not like I haven't discussed this a million times with a million losers that like green hair and rainbow-colored outfits.

SM Stat Caps
HP 60 Str 24 Mag 20 Skl 29 Spd 30 Luck 40 Def 22 Res 23 (male)
HP 60 Str 22 Mag 20 Skl 29 Spd 30 Luck 30 Def 22 Res 25 (female)


Zihark
Average Stats at 20/0
HP 30.5 Str 14.5 Mag 3.5 Skl 18 Spd 21/20 Luck 10 Def 10 Res 2
Average Stats at 20/10
HP 39.45 Str 19.55 Mag 7.75 Skl 24.5 Spd 27.4 Luck 13.6 Def 14.7 Res 5.8
Average Stats at 20/20
HP 44.95 Str 24.05/24 Mag 10.25 Skl 29.5/29 Spd 33.4/30 Luck 17.6
Def 17.7 Res 7.8

Mia
Average Stats at 20/0
HP 28 Str 12.6 Mag 4.2 Skl 16.3 Spd 21.4/20 Luck 12.3 Def 9.8 Res 5.5
Average Stats at 20/10
HP 36.5 Str 17.2 Mag 8.9 Skl 22.35 Spd 27.4 Luck 16.35 Def 13.6 Res 9.75
Average Stats at 20/20
HP 41.5 Str 21.2 Mag 10.25 Skl 26.85 Spd 33.4/30 Luck 20.85 Def 15.6 Res 12.25


Stefan
Average Stats at 20/10
HP 39.4 Str 20 Mag 8.4 Skl 27.8 Spd 26.1 Luck 5.5 Def 12.7 Res 9.6
Average Stats at 20/20
HP 46.4 Str 25/24 Mag 10.4 Skl 31.8/29 Spd 31.6/30 Luck 8 Def 16.2 Res 12.6


Right, so. Stefan's got a nice little lead in STR and a decent little bit in HP and SKL, but LCK is important, and a MASSIVE weakness in that department isn't just something to gloss over. Fact - his stats are weaker than both Zihark and Mia. Noob players like to act like Mia's 3 or 4 less STR totally matters, but thanks to her LCK she's practically unhittable and a crit master, plus with Gamble she guarantees crits. Meanwhile Stefan has got raw stats but none of the little perks. He's good, but he competes with better and that's why he's not in a high tier.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Stefan also be given Gamble?

lol you make it sound like Stefan isn't getting enough criticals. Even if he doesn't critical he has the power to take out any enemy that isn't a Knight of Paladin. That four Strength is a really good advantage, if you think about it.

Besides, niether Stefan or Mia deserve high. Bottom of upper mid perhaps.

9. Yeah, Rhys has a massive level lead of like 4 fights. Beginning fights. But then Mist is pretty much necessary to beat the black knight, her promo is mounted, and her stats are better because she's not getting double attacked throughout the ENTIRE GAME. (Just half of it) Really though, it's a giant douche/turd sandwich situation, and mist is just not quite as bad.

More like, er, eight. :/ And beginning fights are where most of the healing is taking place. Look, all I'm saying is than Rhys deserves something better than Lower-Mid.
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