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#1 shrub

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 03:44 PM

Since it doesn't exist yet, I thought I would make a thread for anyone that might be involved or interested in the competitive scenes surrounding any of the Smash games. Whether you're a player or a spectator, I'd love to know if you have locals in your area which you attend.

 

For example, I live in the GTA and attend York University, so I'm mostly involved in the Toronto Melee scene. I'm a member of the Smash club at my school which has a decent following. We host tournaments on campus occasionally, but the heart of the scene is at the Smash on Tap weeklies (PM/Sm4sh: Thursday; Melee: Friday) and monthlies (Melee: Saturday). They're hosted at Shoxs' Billiard Lounge which has awesome beer and food. If you live in the area, check it out. 

 

While I enjoy all of the Smash games, the only one that I'm really interested in competitively is Melee, so that's the scene I would be personally interested in talking about. However, feel free to discuss any of the other games. Let's see how many competitive smashers are hiding here!

 

Relevant links:

YU Smash Facebook Group

Smash on Tap Facebook Page

Ontario Melee Facebook Group

My Anther's Ladder Profile - feel free to message me if you want to play some Melee netplay.

 

Other Smash links:

Melee It On Me

/r/SmashBros

VGBC Twitch channel

Leffen's Twitter

NintendoDojo

SmashBoards


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#2 Yosh

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 11:08 PM

Krevin's gonna cream his jeans when he sees this topic


Yosh on comparing Final Fantasy characters: "Balthier would kill Tidus with a ship. WHILE smuggling 20 kilos of uncut

cocaine from Bolivia and fucking Fran on the starboard deck."

NITRO/DURF/THUNK/LUNE/SEH/MIDIAN/DRSEXSTIX/JARLAXLE/KALEIDO/YOSHIQUACK/OMEGABLASTER/BYOXXYL

MATSUO/SMILEYTHEJOKER/MOONSTRUCKTIMBERWOLF/PETUH/GRANDSAGE/BONERSTORM/DATH/NOVEMBER


#3 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 04:49 PM

I live in rural Newfoundland, and the nearest competitive Smash group is at Memorial University of Newfoundland in St. John's, which is a 5+ hour drive from where I live.

 

My cousin and I are starting a monthly tournament in our area, the last one we held only had 9 entrants, but hey. It's better than nothing. I'm hoping to get some help from the aforementioned group in getting word out that we're holding tournaments.

 

So far we only play Smash 4, most of the local Smashers didn't even play Melee, and started on Brawl/PM. I'm hoping to sbring Melee into it eventually.


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#4 Leo

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 11:14 PM

i don't follow competitive smash much, but i like to play in small tournaments. i played in a local  brawl tournament and nearly won. got wrecked by someone who actually plays a lot of smash. it was kinda funny actually. i want to get into playing sm4sh at a competitive level, but the interest where i am is fairly low. it'd be an hour drive just to find someone else who plays at all(i live in what is generally considered to be a retirement community).


This is FEEF

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#5 shrub

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 02:38 AM

I live in rural Newfoundland, and the nearest competitive Smash group is at Memorial University of Newfoundland in St. John's, which is a 5+ hour drive from where I live.

 

My cousin and I are starting a monthly tournament in our area, the last one we held only had 9 entrants, but hey. It's better than nothing. I'm hoping to get some help from the aforementioned group in getting word out that we're holding tournaments.

 

So far we only play Smash 4, most of the local Smashers didn't even play Melee, and started on Brawl/PM. I'm hoping to sbring Melee into it eventually.

Aw man that suuuucks. But it's cool to know how far-reaching Smash is.

 

Have you considered using Melee netplay to practice? For me, it feels just a little too different to not mess my game up, but it could be a decent tool for someone who has no one nearby to spar with.


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#6 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 05:22 PM

I've tried, but my current PC just can't handle it. I don't really have the spare funds to upgrade right now either (I'm projecting that I'll have $18 left in my bank account after I pay for tuitiion next semester, so...).

 

In all honesty, I prefer playing Smash 4 anyway (the decent online makes for easy practice with friends too), but I would just like to expand and introduce people to Melee.

 

 

 

 

Also, how does everyone feel about the PMDev team letting go? I've played a lot of PM but never really fell in love with it (to me, it just feels like a gimmicky Melee), but it's sad to hear that they won't be making anything more for it.

 

A lot of people are calling it dead, but a lot of others are claiming that the Meta will have a chance to mature. Honestly, I feel like v3.6 is not nearly balanced or complete enough to survive long enough to have a "mature" meta.

 

IMHO, they should have stopped at v3.02.


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#7 shrub

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:50 PM

Also, how does everyone feel about the PMDev team letting go? I've played a lot of PM but never really fell in love with it (to me, it just feels like a gimmicky Melee), but it's sad to hear that they won't be making anything more for it.

 

A lot of people are calling it dead, but a lot of others are claiming that the Meta will have a chance to mature. Honestly, I feel like v3.6 is not nearly balanced or complete enough to survive long enough to have a "mature" meta.

 

IMHO, they should have stopped at v3.02.

I love PM and think it's really really fun, but as a competitive game I couldn't really get into it, as with Smash 4. I entered PM at Smash on Tap once and I didn't like the meta at all. Every character is buffed so that they are viable, thus you have to know almost every matchup in the game, and fuck that. Plus the tech still feels a little janky to me. For example, the wavedashing is more forgiving than melee, and as a result I've found that sometimes a wavedash just won't come out, even if it was timed just right. Like you said, it feels like a gimmicky melee.

 

So I guess I don't care. As it is, I think PM is a great casually competitive/fun/party game.


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#8 wwwwwwwwwhats up youtube

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 06:15 AM

Relevant links should be updated:

 

Melee It On Me should be first, because it's basically the center of competitive smash news

/r/SmashBros seems to be a big part of the competitive scene as well but I refuse to fucks with Reddit.

The VGBC Twitch channel should never be more than a few clicks away

Leffen's Twitter is a very important link

NintendoDojo (formerly AllIsBrawl) seems like a big part of the community for Smash4

And how can we forget SmashBoards

 

Also, how does everyone feel about the PMDev team letting go? I've played a lot of PM but never really fell in love with it (to me, it just feels like a gimmicky Melee), but it's sad to hear that they won't be making anything more for it.

 

A lot of people are calling it dead, but a lot of others are claiming that the Meta will have a chance to mature. Honestly, I feel like v3.6 is not nearly balanced or complete enough to survive long enough to have a "mature" meta.

 

IMHO, they should have stopped at v3.02.

I agree, 3.02 was the first truly finished version of the game. All the other patches nerfed Ivysaur and left a lot of people dissatisfied (coincidence?)

Their logic made a lot of sense though. They said they were changing too many things too fast and not giving the game enough time to settle and create a meta. This is true.

I think that, considering they went ahead and made 3.5 and 3.6, they should have then finished by releasing a final version with polished versions of Knuckles, Lyn, and Isaac, and fixing the fuckstorm that is G&W. Then let the game run its course.

 

I love PM and think it's really really fun, but as a competitive game I couldn't really get into it, as with Smash 4. I entered PM at Smash on Tap once and I didn't like the meta at all. Every character is buffed so that they are viable, thus you have to know almost every matchup in the game, and fuck that. Plus the tech still feels a little janky to me. For example, the wavedashing is more forgiving than melee, and as a result I've found that sometimes a wavedash just won't come out, even if it was timed just right. Like you said, it feels like a gimmicky melee.

 

So I guess I don't care. As it is, I think PM is a great casually competitive/fun/party game.

Yeah, PM tech is weird. A lot of frame windows are bigger. For example, I'm pretty sure the B-reverse frame input window lasts for an additional 2 or 3 frames. Plus a lot of characters (especially Fox) were given things like bigger input windows for short hops and other stuff. You can make a Fox look TAS level in PM with <150 APM. It's nuts. 

I also don't like that every character is viable. I liked 3.02 near the end, because it had enough time for the tiers to become apparent. And despite what anybody says, having separated tiers is both helpful and natural in a competitive environment. Having a random bad matchup (like Puff getting hard countered by Ivysaur) only matters if that character matters. And you don't have to learn a bunch of matchups on the fly every tournament, you only have to learn random mid tiers every once in a while. 

3.02 started having a really healthy metagame IMO. Mewtwo had his rightful place as the best character in the game, which is how they should have made him in Melee. Pit, Lucas, Diddy, and Mario were all top tier and not for dumb reasons (except debatably Diddy), while Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth were also all completely usable at top level.

3.02 was just such a good game. I miss it.

 

 

 

Adding a new point of discussion: Luigi in Melee. Viable?

After Abate's amazing runs at things like SSS and TBH5, and seeing things like Vist being a badass and all of the things Eddie Mexico has been doing since the dawn of time, I'm starting to line up with the belief that Luigi is actually a decent character. I mean he's not top tier. But I'm beginning more and more to think of him as being in that Peach/Falcon/ICs/Samus/Pika tier. Agree? Disagree?


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#9 shrub

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 01:16 PM

Relevant links should be updated:

 

Melee It On Me should be first, because it's basically the center of competitive smash news

/r/SmashBros seems to be a big part of the competitive scene as well but I refuse to fucks with Reddit.

The VGBC Twitch channel should never be more than a few clicks away

Leffen's Twitter is a very important link

NintendoDojo (formerly AllIsBrawl) seems like a big part of the community for Smash4

And how can we forget SmashBoards

Thanks. Added.

 

Adding a new point of discussion: Luigi in Melee. Viable?

After Abate's amazing runs at things like SSS and TBH5, and seeing things like Vist being a badass and all of the things Eddie Mexico has been doing since the dawn of time, I'm starting to line up with the belief that Luigi is actually a decent character. I mean he's not top tier. But I'm beginning more and more to think of him as being in that Peach/Falcon/ICs/Samus/Pika tier. Agree? Disagree?

I can personally attest to Luigi being viable. My friend/main sparring partner plays Luigi alongside Marth and does almost as well against me with his Luigi as he does with his Marth. But that can always be a personal matchup issue. Objectively, though, I agree with his current tier placement. He's A tier, which ssbwiki describes as "consisting of semi-viable characters who can place high in very competent hands, but have significant disadvantages that keep them from consistently placing high in significant tournaments." Significant hands being Abate, Vudujin, and Eddie Mexico. And the second part doesn't need an explanation. If Luigi mains start more consistently placing top 8 at nationals and more highly at majors, I might consider Luigi higher in the A tier, but I don't think he will ever be considered S tier. If anyone can do it, it's Abate, and since Axe > Abate ate the moment, Pikachu > Luigi. If anything, I would move Luigi one spot up, above Ganon. But there's no way in hell he is more tournament viable than Samus, so that's where he stays for now.


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#10 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 02:46 PM

I play around a lot with Luigi, he's defs viable. Maybe not as a solo main, but there's definitely proof that you can get results with Luigi. I agree with you, PhD. He's above Ganon, but below Samus.

 

I love low tier characters, Melee Mewtwo is one of my favourite characters to play, despite being garbage. So seeing Luigi getting results makes me happy.

 

Plus, Abate is cute.


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#11 wwwwwwwwwhats up youtube

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 07:52 PM

the current official tier list is so outdated omg

I think a more accurate tier list right now would be like

 

S+: Fox

S: Falco, Marth

S-: Sheik, Jigglypuff

A+: Peach, Captain Falcon

A: Samus, Ice Climbers, Pikachu

A-: Luigi, Yoshi

B+: Doc, Ganondorf

B: Mario, Link, Young Link, Game and Watch

B-: DK, Mewtwo, Zelda, Roy

F: Pichu, Bowser, Ness, Kirby

 

Arguably even Luigi up into A, Yoshi down into B+ or even lower, and Pikachu and Ice Climbers could potentially be swapped. Axe alone has brought the Pikachu metagame so far, he has more current top 8 places then any ICs player by a long shot. But, ICs have more good players, so there are way more ICs breaking out of pools at large-scale tournaments than Pikachus. 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, as for the Luigi thing: We have a few Luigi mains in Vegas (three devoted Luigi mains that I can think of, plus two of our ranked players will occasionally go Luigi for all/almost all of a tournament), so I'm familiar with the matchup. I definitely think he has the tools to navigate through the metagame for sure. His Fox matchup is honestly on the better end (as can be seen by watching Abate, Hulka, Eddie Mexico, etc. in any tournament) for a few reasons. First, Fox's entire spectrum of his offensive game on Luigi becomes extremely limited. There are almost no follow-ups out of shine (wavedash out of shine into SHFFL nair, which leads to nothing, is the best combo I know of), uthrow uair doesn't work at very many percents, and Luigi has an easy escape from shield pressure just by light shielding. On top of stuff like that, Luigi has an interupt comparable to shine (four frame nair it's such a dick move!), he has a chaingrab (not great but it's there), a ton of mix-ups on his grab combos, wavedash usmash to start combos, wavedash ftilt being a Marth-level spacing tool, really strong punishes on non-ledge recoveries, great edge guarding options, etc. In a truly 20XX world, Luigi would be viable.

I also know that Luigi vs Peach is close to even. Maybe slightly in Peach's advantage but not by a large amount. Does anybody have very extensive knowledge of the Sheik, Marth, or Falco matchups for Luigi though? I feel like Weegee gets fucked by Marth because Marth's sword is like the size of Luigi, but that's all I really know about any of those.


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#12 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:33 PM

Can confirm (I dual main Sheik/Marth), Marth destroys Luigi. There's just no way around the range. In the mean time, I feel like I have a harder time fighting Weeg with Sheik, but only comparatively. I definitely think Sheik takes that MU handily.

 

For me I'd say:

 

Marth vs Luigi: 80/20

Sheik vs Luigi: 65/35

 

 

Take everything I say with a grain of salt though, I'm only at an intermediate level of Melee.


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#13 wwwwwwwwwhats up youtube

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 12:43 AM

Those look pretty accurate. Despite having spent years as a Sheik main, I had only really faced a small handful of Weegees before switching over to Peach. I do know that Luigi is floaty and slippery enough that you can't perform long combos against him. But Sheik's neutral game against Weegee is super one-sided. You just bait out a lot of wavedash ftilt approaches and the like, shield grab, and then get little combos out of that. Or you can just force your way in, Luigi's crouch cancel isn't very good so you get to use a lot of moves at low risk. There's also the danger of, if Sheik messes up any sort of combo, Luigi gets the interupt and suddenly it becomes Luigi's opportunity for a conversion. I do know that most of the stocks I've dropped as Sheik against Luigi have been from overextending and getting fucked by it. 65:35 sounds about right.

 

What about Falco? I know almost nothing about that matchup.


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#14 shrub

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 01:44 AM

the current official tier list is so outdated omg

I think a more accurate tier list right now would be like

 

S+: Fox

S: Falco, Marth

S-: Sheik, Jigglypuff

A+: Peach, Captain Falcon

A: Samus, Ice Climbers, Pikachu

A-: Luigi, Yoshi

B+: Doc, Ganondorf

B: Mario, Link, Young Link, Game and Watch

B-: DK, Mewtwo, Zelda, Roy

F: Pichu, Bowser, Ness, Kirby

 

Arguably even Luigi up into A, Yoshi down into B+ or even lower, and Pikachu and Ice Climbers could potentially be swapped. Axe alone has brought the Pikachu metagame so far, he has more current top 8 places then any ICs player by a long shot. But, ICs have more good players, so there are way more ICs breaking out of pools at large-scale tournaments than Pikachus. 

I don't think it's that outdated personally. I like how the tiers are defined by tournament viability, I think that's really smart. And anything more than 4 or 5 tiers is excessive in my opinion. Anyway, I still think it holds true for the most part, I would just make a few adjustments based on how the tournament viability of some characters have changed over the past two years. That being said I don't think they changed dramatically.

 

S: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik

A+: Jigglypuff, Peach

A-: C. Falcon, ICs, Samus, Pikachu, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Ganon, Mario

B: Young Link, DK, Link, Yoshi, Zelda, Mewtwo, Roy, G&W, Kirby

F: Ness, Bowser, Pichu

 

The order of characters within tiers S to A- were chosen carefully, the others not so much as I don't have as much knowledge of those characters.

 

What about Falco? I know almost nothing about that matchup.

I'm a Falco main, so I have a lot of experience with Falco/Luigi. Luigi's recovery takes a long time, is hard to mix up, and generally sucks, making him easy to edgeguard as Falco who can Fsmash Luigi's side B and Dair or easily edgehog his up B (since it's so vertical). With Luigi's ground moves having plenty of lag, he's pretty easy to open up with a Dair or waveshine and get a conversion on, but extended combos/pillaring is tough as he is super floaty and can interrupt Falco's combos quite easily with a Nair or even Dair (which can potentially kill if spaced correctly). Luigi can also edgeguard Falco well. A competent Luigi can jump off stage and Fair a charging Firebird or hit Phantasm with pretty much anything if timed correctly.

 

I'd say the matchup is about 65/35 in favour of Falco.


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#15 Scuiriot

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 04:27 PM

I'm trying to get back into smash but my old hands aren't like my 20 y/o hands... :(


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#16 shrub

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 09:38 PM

I'm trying to get back into smash but my old hands aren't like my 20 y/o hands... :(

In that case, just don't play Melee :P


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#17 Scuiriot

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 05:33 PM

In that case, just don't play Melee :P

 

Like back in my Melee day's I could wavedash with the best of em... now I'm having trouble relearning short hop/fast fall in Sm4sh.... >_>... though you put an Xbox S1 controller in my hands and halo 2 and I can still do all that shit no problem... >_<...

 

Also, in melee I mained Falco and Young Link, the only thing I couldn't do was the bomb drop, catch aerial attack thing... (z drop bomb, catch bomb with a bair, z drop bomb, catch bomb with a bair in a single short hop. things like that.)

 

In Brawl I mained Toon Link - loved his aerial game, being able to nair bounce off shields into an arrow so they couldn't advance....

 

though TLink in Sm4sh is very different... most of the things I loved about him are gone... :'( though I can still do great things  with him and his items by changing my play-style for this game... Would you have any recommendations for a champion I could play like the old Tlink? Great/Safe aerial game/advancing?


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#18 shrub

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 03:28 AM

though TLink in Sm4sh is very different... most of the things I loved about him are gone... :'( though I can still do great things  with him and his items by changing my play-style for this game... Would you have any recommendations for a champion I could play like the old Tlink? Great/Safe aerial game/advancing?

From the little Smash 4 I've played, I'd say Villager, just because he's one of the few characters I learned and my main for the time that I played the game. He's not top tier by any means but he has some really great tools for walling your opponent out in the same vain as Toon Link. A lot of his moves are projectiles such as the slingshot, tree, gyroid, etc. and he has great aerials and aerial mobility. Villager's bread and butter is similar to Samus or Toon/Young/Link where you throw out your side B (gyroid missile) forcing them to jump, in which case you throw out Fair (slingshot) to wall them out, or shield in which case you either grab and punish if you're close enough, or take the opportunity to plant your tree or throw out more projectiles for added pressure.

 

I'm assuming Toon Link is similar to Link characters from other Smash games because I know nothing about Brawl.


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#19 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 07:55 PM

though TLink in Sm4sh is very different... most of the things I loved about him are gone... :'( though I can still do great things  with him and his items by changing my play-style for this game... Would you have any recommendations for a champion I could play like the old Tlink? Great/Safe aerial game/advancing?

 

Sounds like Shiek. She has the safest neutral and fastest/most ranged aerials in the game, bar none. Needle camping is excellent, and she baits with basically no risk, and you can punish faster than any reaction. Nair is super meaty and last forever, comes out on frame 3 and lasts til 30. Fair can out-space Marth's, and comes out frame 5 and combos into itself to carry people across the stage.

 

Only downside is near non-existent kill power, but grab does combo into bouncing fish for +120% kills, and down throw sets up into a 50/50 for uair/up-b.

 

From what you've told me in the past, you don't really like hard-zoning, but just using projectiles to open opportunities for aerials and punishes. I recommend at least giving her a shot.


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#20 wwwwwwwwwhats up youtube

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 03:11 AM

I don't think it's that outdated personally. I like how the tiers are defined by tournament viability, I think that's really smart. And anything more than 4 or 5 tiers is excessive in my opinion. Anyway, I still think it holds true for the most part, I would just make a few adjustments based on how the tournament viability of some characters have changed over the past two years. That being said I don't think they changed dramatically.
 
S: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik
A+: Jigglypuff, Peach
A-: C. Falcon, ICs, Samus, Pikachu, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Ganon, Mario
B: Young Link, DK, Link, Yoshi, Zelda, Mewtwo, Roy, G&W, Kirby
F: Ness, Bowser, Pichu
 
The order of characters within tiers S to A- were chosen carefully, the others not so much as I don't have as much knowledge of those characters.
 
I'm a Falco main, so I have a lot of experience with Falco/Luigi. Luigi's recovery takes a long time, is hard to mix up, and generally sucks, making him easy to edgeguard as Falco who can Fsmash Luigi's side B and Dair or easily edgehog his up B (since it's so vertical). With Luigi's ground moves having plenty of lag, he's pretty easy to open up with a Dair or waveshine and get a conversion on, but extended combos/pillaring is tough as he is super floaty and can interrupt Falco's combos quite easily with a Nair or even Dair (which can potentially kill if spaced correctly). Luigi can also edgeguard Falco well. A competent Luigi can jump off stage and Fair a charging Firebird or hit Phantasm with pretty much anything if timed correctly.
 
I'd say the matchup is about 65/35 in favour of Falco.
My list was only 4 tiers! Just, each tier was split into subtiers. But S being completely viable at all levels of play, and the limit to performance in the current metagame for a character in that tier being the ability to win a supermajor (which, in that case, means that there is no limit). A tier still being viable all the way up to top level play, at which point they are only viable in some matchups. A tier's limit is the ability to make top 8 in supermajors, and it's very rare for an A-tier character to actually win a supermajor. At top level, playing an A-tier character typically requires the inclusion of a secondary (Note: Armada went from Peach to Fox/Peach, Haxf$ went from CF to Fox, Plup went from Samus to Sheik/Samus, Leffen went from Yoshi to Fox, Axe plays Pika/Falco despite only being known for his Pika, etc). B-tier can consistently break pools, and even maybe win a few rounds of bracket, in supermajors, but their ability to make top 8 is very limited and they are generally only used as secondaries for very specific matchups (prior to 20XX, Armada would use Yink for the Jigglypuff matchup. Shroomed still plays Doc in certain matchups, a lot of Falcon players like n0ne and Darkrain will occasionally play Ganon for certain matchups, etc.). F tier is lucky to make it out of pools at supermajors and generally not viable.
 
Your list is pretty solid. Here are the big things I disagree with, though:
1. Puff needs to be in S tier. Puff has literally been winning supermajors. And her matchups are great. I would say Fox vs Puff is roughly 60:40 Fox's favor, and that's Puff's only bad matchup. And unlike many other high tier characters, Puff doesn't have a lot of neutral matchups. Falco and Marth are both even-ish matchups for Puff, but after that, Puff Sheik is ~60:40-65:35, Puff Peach is 70:30, Puff Icees is ~70:30, Puff CF is ~55:45... I could go on but I think the point is clear. Puff wins almost every matchup. And with all the advancements Hbox has been making in the Puff vs Fox matchup it's hard to believe she even loses that.
2. Peach should be lower. Armada has everybody fooled but Peach actually isn't THAT good. Beyond Armada, the best performing Peaches are only placing comparable to the best Falcons. I think it's fair to say that MacD and S2J are equal in both skill level and tournament results. Further down you start getting players like DOH, Bladewise, and Kalamazhu, who are comparable to n0ne, Guts, and Wizzy. The fact that the results and skill level are so comparable between the two isn't a coincidence - Peach and Falcon are comparable.
 
 
I'm trying to get back into smash but my old hands aren't like my 20 y/o hands... :(
Just don't play Fox. Puff can play at top level with like <100 APM. Compare that to top level Fox/Falco APMs of like 250.
 
Like back in my Melee day's I could wavedash with the best of em... now I'm having trouble relearning short hop/fast fall in Sm4sh.... >_>... though you put an Xbox S1 controller in my hands and halo 2 and I can still do all that shit no problem... >_<...
 
Also, in melee I mained Falco and Young Link, the only thing I couldn't do was the bomb drop, catch aerial attack thing... (z drop bomb, catch bomb with a bair, z drop bomb, catch bomb with a bair in a single short hop. things like that.)
 
In Brawl I mained Toon Link - loved his aerial game, being able to nair bounce off shields into an arrow so they couldn't advance....
 
though TLink in Sm4sh is very different... most of the things I loved about him are gone... :'( though I can still do great things  with him and his items by changing my play-style for this game... Would you have any recommendations for a champion I could play like the old Tlink? Great/Safe aerial game/advancing?
 
Ness is probably the most similar, at least that I can think of. He has the option of defensive or offensive use of his projectiles, he's floaty with a combo game, he's got a mini wall-of-death... But idk, I don't play enough S4 to really know for sure. If I ever start taking that game seriously I'm gonna play either Zamus or Ryu. Unless they put out a patch making Bowser Jr. viable.

Sounds like Shiek. She has the safest neutral and fastest/most ranged aerials in the game, bar none. Needle camping is excellent, and she baits with basically no risk, and you can punish faster than any reaction. Nair is super meaty and last forever, comes out on frame 3 and lasts til 30. Fair can out-space Marth's, and comes out frame 5 and combos into itself to carry people across the stage.
 
Only downside is near non-existent kill power, but grab does combo into bouncing fish for +120% kills, and down throw sets up into a 50/50 for uair/up-b.
 
From what you've told me in the past, you don't really like hard-zoning, but just using projectiles to open opportunities for aerials and punishes. I recommend at least giving her a shot.
All of these things are true but don't encourage anybody to play Sheik in Smash 4. Wolff is a good person, he has a soul and self-respect, don't ask him to taint himself like that.

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