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#21 shrub

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 03:32 AM

Your list is pretty solid. Here are the big things I disagree with, though:

 

1. Puff needs to be in S tier. Puff has literally been winning supermajors. And her matchups are great. I would say Fox vs Puff is roughly 60:40 Fox's favor, and that's Puff's only bad matchup. And unlike many other high tier characters, Puff doesn't have a lot of neutral matchups. Falco and Marth are both even-ish matchups for Puff, but after that, Puff Sheik is ~60:40-65:35, Puff Peach is 70:30, Puff Icees is ~70:30, Puff CF is ~55:45... I could go on but I think the point is clear. Puff wins almost every matchup. And with all the advancements Hbox has been making in the Puff vs Fox matchup it's hard to believe she even loses that.

 

2. Peach should be lower. Armada has everybody fooled but Peach actually isn't THAT good. Beyond Armada, the best performing Peaches are only placing comparable to the best Falcons. I think it's fair to say that MacD and S2J are equal in both skill level and tournament results. Further down you start getting players like DOH, Bladewise, and Kalamazhu, who are comparable to n0ne, Guts, and Wizzy. The fact that the results and skill level are so comparable between the two isn't a coincidence - Peach and Falcon are comparable.

1. I agree. I just hesitate to consider Puff S tier when Hbox is really the only player making progress with her. When comparing Puff and Fox for example, there are many mid to high level Fox players that are all placing well and playing the character in a unique way. In my opinion, Puff players besides Hbox aren't noteworthy. There are so many great Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth mains outside of the top 6 I could think of, while with Puff not so much. The characters I put in S tier have potential and consistency that Puff, Peach, and the rest just don't have.

 

2. Again, I agree with you. Peach and Falcon are definitely comparable. The main reason I placed Peach higher than Falcon is because of how their matchups with S tier characters compare. From what I've seen, Peach fares much better against spacies in particular. They have a much harder time comboing Peach, and edgeguarding Falcon is a breeze while edgeguarding a Peach with good mixups can be tricky. Overall, I think Peach has a better place in the meta, and the way I think about it, while Peach only has Armada as a top 8 placer, there really isn't an equivalent Falcon main. And I think that is huge in his tier placement.


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#22 Krevin

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 04:18 AM

1. I agree. I just hesitate to consider Puff S tier when Hbox is really the only player making progress with her. When comparing Puff and Fox for example, there are many mid to high level Fox players that are all placing well and playing the character in a unique way. In my opinion, Puff players besides Hbox aren't noteworthy. There are so many great Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth mains outside of the top 6 I could think of, while with Puff not so much. The characters I put in S tier have potential and consistency that Puff, Peach, and the rest just don't have.

I can agree with this. Solid point. IIRC the next best Puff player is Prince Abu, and he's... MAYBE in the top 100?
But it also has to be noted, HBox didn't invent Jigglypuff. There was somebody else that took the title of "best in the world" with Jigglypuff long before Hungrybox. I think the combination of Mango's and Hungrybox's performances might be enough to justify S-tier.
 

2. Again, I agree with you. Peach and Falcon are definitely comparable. The main reason I placed Peach higher than Falcon is because of how their matchups with S tier characters compare. From what I've seen, Peach fares much better against spacies in particular. They have a much harder time comboing Peach, and edgeguarding Falcon is a breeze while edgeguarding a Peach with good mixups can be tricky. Overall, I think Peach has a better place in the meta, and the way I think about it, while Peach only has Armada as a top 8 placer, there really isn't an equivalent Falcon main. And I think that is huge in his tier placement.

Errrrrr, it's really only vs Falco that Peach is better, I think. Until you start getting into less important matchups.

 

Rough estimations of all the matchups

_______Peach__Falcon

Fox____40:60___45:55

Falco___55:45___40:60

Marth___40:60___50:50

Sheik___40:60___40:60

Puff_____30:70__45:55

Peach___mirror__60:40

Falcon___40:60__mirror

ICs______80:20__50:50

Samus___55:45__60:40

Pika_____60:40__50:50

 

Any differences in any of the other matchups is going to be too insignificant to matter. 

 

Basically, most matchups Falcon has a slightly better chance, but a few matchups Peach has a significantly better matchup. It's pretty comparable overall.


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#23 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 05:31 PM

Ness is probably the most similar, at least that I can think of. He has the option of defensive or offensive use of his projectiles, he's floaty with a combo game, he's got a mini wall-of-death... But idk, I don't play enough S4 to really know for sure. If I ever start taking that game seriously I'm gonna play either Zamus or Ryu. Unless they put out a patch making Bowser Jr. viable.

All of these things are true but don't encourage anybody to play Sheik in Smash 4. Wolff is a good person, he has a soul and self-respect, don't ask him to taint himself like that.

 

Ness is the most cancerous character in the meta right now. Braindead-simple grab combos that work regardless of % and a backthrow that'll kill most at center stage anywhere above 120%... If we're trying to avoiding tainting him, I wouldn't suggest Ness.

 

Sheik is less about the free damage and cheap combos. Most of her setups are 50/50s or just basic mix-ups, nothing is "free" after about 80%. You need to actually know how to use this character to make effective use of her.

 

 

Both ZSS and Ryu would be solid picks. I know you hate the defensive/campy nature of this game, so both of those characters will let you go absolutely ham without having to worry about getting walled/zoned/stalled. I picked up ZSS to cover my Luigi matchup with Pika, and now I actually prefer to use ZSS in almost every matchup.

 

ZSS hard counters both Mario and Luigi, Rosalina, and Fox... and she'll destroy just about anyone else. I now only use Pika against other ZSS', Sheik, and Diddy. Oh, and I'll always go for the ditto with Pikachu.

 

 

Ryu has an intimidating learning curve and requires serious precision, but I'd argue that in return his punish game is par with ZSS. Plus, he has legitimate inescapable combos. Hadouken is an mazing zoning tool, and True-Shoryuken is probably the most reliable vertical kill move in the game (and combos out of u-tilt, d-tilt, nair, and dair), along with Boost Kick. He's scary in the right hands. Case in point.


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#24 Krevin

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 06:49 PM

Ness is the most cancerous character in the meta right now. Braindead-simple grab combos that work regardless of % and a backthrow that'll kill most at center stage anywhere above 120%... If we're trying to avoiding tainting him, I wouldn't suggest Ness.
 
Sheik is less about the free damage and cheap combos. Most of her setups are 50/50s or just basic mix-ups, nothing is "free" after about 80%. You need to actually know how to use this character to make effective use of her.
This is news to me. The last tournament I went to for S4 was EVO so needless to say I've been really distant from the metagame. The only complaints I seem to ever hear from local S4 players are about how lame Sheik, so I figured she was still the only really toxic character in the meta now that customs are gone.
 
 
Both ZSS and Ryu would be solid picks. I know you hate the defensive/campy nature of this game, so both of those characters will let you go absolutely ham without having to worry about getting walled/zoned/stalled. I picked up ZSS to cover my Luigi matchup with Pika, and now I actually prefer to use ZSS in almost every matchup.
 
ZSS hard counters both Mario and Luigi, Rosalina, and Fox... and she'll destroy just about anyone else. I now only use Pika against other ZSS', Sheik, and Diddy. Oh, and I'll always go for the ditto with Pikachu.
 
 
Ryu has an intimidating learning curve and requires serious precision, but I'd argue that in return his punish game is par with ZSS. Plus, he has legitimate inescapable combos. Hadouken is an mazing zoning tool, and True-Shoryuken is probably the most reliable vertical kill move in the game (and combos out of u-tilt, d-tilt, nair, and dair), along with Boost Kick. He's scary in the right hands. Case in point.
Yeah, as far back as when I started getting into competitive smash with Brawl, I've always been a huge fan of the RTSD style. Sort of the "Get all up in their face so even though they were planning on baiting you, you're just gonna beat the shit out of them anyways" mentality. Seeing Nairo's ZSS beat ZeRo straight up made me want to go out, buy a Wii U, start putting lab hours in, and start playing Zamus in tournament. But I'm poor so the Wii U is gonna have to wait.
Ryu enticed me when I realized how big of a tech learning curve he had. It makes me feel at home, because most characters in Melee have a similar learning curve. Plus every game that Ryu is in, he's either my main or part of my team (because you don't have just one main in vs games or SFXT). So it only makes sense that I main him in literally every game he's in. Between all the footage I've seen of Ryu on stream, the little I've fucked around with him so far, and the amount I've seen people on Twitter mention him being broken, I'd be surprised if Ryu wasn't a top tier character.


EDIT: FUCK
https://www.youtube....h?v=6BYqkKsOywQ

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#25 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 08:24 PM

EDIT: FUCK
https://www.youtube....h?v=6BYqkKsOywQ

 

Damn that set was just so good. I'll be using this one next time someone argues against me that Smash 4 is slow and requires no skill.

 

Two rounds over in the first 3 minutes, and every stock a total obliteration.

 

This is news to me. The last tournament I went to for S4 was EVO so needless to say I've been really distant from the metagame. The only complaints I seem to ever hear from local S4 players are about how lame Sheik, so I figured she was still the only really toxic character in the meta now that customs are gone.

 

A lot of people who still bash on Sheik are the same people who call out "tier-whores" and other bullshit. Unfortunately for me, ZSS is quickly becoming a popular target too, to the point where Kurogane actually has her frame data page labelled "Zero Skill Samus". I guess it's just new-meta syndrome, but people are always too quick to turn on everyone for the smallest things. The uair-uair-up b combo is only "free" if you don't DI the d-throw, and if you're playing ZSS and forget to DI that, you deserve to lose the stock.

 

 

Between all the footage I've seen of Ryu on stream, the little I've fucked around with him so far, and the amount I've seen people on Twitter mention him being broken, I'd be surprised if Ryu wasn't a top tier character.

 

I said on day one, and it's on record between me and all my smash friends, Ryu is gonna be a top-tier. There's no way a character can come in with so many extra tools and movement options ontop of infinites and kill setups and not be a dominant force. I think it's just taking a while for top players to get there because of the sheer difficulty of the character.


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#26 Krevin

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 09:46 PM

Damn that set was just so good. I'll be using this one next time someone argues against me that Smash 4 is slow and requires no skill.
 
Two rounds over in the first 3 minutes, and every stock a total obliteration.
Yeah. I mean it is true that S4 gives more reward to campy/lame-o playstyles than Melee does, but it's not like Brawl where rushdowns are non-viable. Everyone just assumes S4 is Brawl with a bigger cast but it really isn't. I really respect the fact that offense-heavy play is still viable.
 
A lot of people who still bash on Sheik are the same people who call out "tier-whores" and other bullshit. Unfortunately for me, ZSS is quickly becoming a popular target too, to the point where Kurogane actually has her frame data page labelled "Zero Skill Samus". I guess it's just new-meta syndrome, but people are always too quick to turn on everyone for the smallest things. The uair-uair-up b combo is only "free" if you don't DI the d-throw, and if you're playing ZSS and forget to DI that, you deserve to lose the stock.
yeahhhhh that's kinda just a routine part of a younger scene. Those players start to either mature or leave the scene after a while though. And they think it's free because they don't DI, and it's easier to complain and say that it takes no skill than to git gud so it stops happening to you.
 
 
I said on day one, and it's on record between me and all my smash friends, Ryu is gonna be a top-tier. There's no way a character can come in with so many extra tools and movement options ontop of infinites and kill setups and not be a dominant force. I think it's just taking a while for top players to get there because of the sheer difficulty of the character.
They gave him so many tools! FADC is hella good, and all of his other cancelling shenangians are all hella good. He has an invincible air dash that he can use to mix up his recovery. Extremely low damage kills, which have guaranteed setups on-shield. So much good stuff. He's amazing.

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#27 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 05:26 PM

Yeah. I mean it is true that S4 gives more reward to campy/lame-o playstyles than Melee does, but it's not like Brawl where rushdowns are non-viable. Everyone just assumes S4 is Brawl with a bigger cast but it really isn't. I really respect the fact that offense-heavy play is still viable.

 

Man, there was big scuff on twitter a couple days ago about this. Seagull Joe was on claiming that Brawl was more competitively viable as a game than Smash 4 was, and that the only thiing keeping it down was random tripping. Never mind the insane amount of infinite chaingrabs, slow and campy meta, and the fact that the entire cast is completely invalidated by a single character.

 

Smash 4 seems to be the most well-balanced across the board, which is kinda good and bad, because there are tons of viable characters, but it also makes it hard for a proper meta to be established when top players are losing to Dr. MArio because of matchup inexperience.

 

Plus, the undoubtedly easiest way to do well in this game is to be scummy and stall/camp/ So at an intermediate level that's the dominating playstyle, which is why characters like Villager or Link are so prevalent in pools/local scenes. This is frustrating to play against for newcomers, and discourages them from getting any further into it. The truth is, once you get into higher level play, the rushdown/ hard punish characters are way better, they just have a higher skill ceiling.


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#28 Scuiriot

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 05:52 PM

Watched that ryu video... and many others... Will look into shiek/Villager/Ness as well.

 

friend just handed me a $20 card to get the dlc characters. :D I think I'm going to learn Ryu a good bit first just to rush down and beat the fuck out of my friends little mack.


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#29 Krevin

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 06:44 PM

Man, there was big scuff on twitter a couple days ago about this. Seagull Joe was on claiming that Brawl was more competitively viable as a game than Smash 4 was, and that the only thiing keeping it down was random tripping. Never mind the insane amount of infinite chaingrabs, slow and campy meta, and the fact that the entire cast is completely invalidated by a single character.
 
Smash 4 seems to be the most well-balanced across the board, which is kinda good and bad, because there are tons of viable characters, but it also makes it hard for a proper meta to be established when top players are losing to Dr. MArio because of matchup inexperience.
 
Plus, the undoubtedly easiest way to do well in this game is to be scummy and stall/camp/ So at an intermediate level that's the dominating playstyle, which is why characters like Villager or Link are so prevalent in pools/local scenes. This is frustrating to play against for newcomers, and discourages them from getting any further into it. The truth is, once you get into higher level play, the rushdown/ hard punish characters are way better, they just have a higher skill ceiling.
Brawl is SOOOO not competitively viable. It's kinda mindblowing that it even got as big as it was. Leffen brought up on stream once that if the official version of Brawl was more like PM instead of regular Brawl, Melee wouldn't have even survived, and actually Melee's survival this long is due entirely to Brawl being such a failure of a game from a competitive standpoint. And it's true!
In Brawl, there only two viable characters that benefited from approaching EVER were Metaknight and Pika, the former being a plague on the metagame that honestly should have stayed banned, and the latter being one of the only respectable characters in the game.

I mean
LOOK at how bad this game is
https://www.youtube....h?v=HeA0Gh7odZQ
the best movement option is to not move
this matchup makes up more than 50% of the metagame
watch as M2K wins the whole set by standing around doing nothing
he's probably not even thinking about this game, this was in summer of 2014 he was probably trying to solve the puzzle of how to beat PPMD in Melee
high level Brawl is so gross omg

and yes, i have noticed that about S4, that shitty play is hella viable at low levels but the higher up you go the less viable it is. That's why Duck Hunt was considered the best character in the game for the first few weeks after the Japanese release and is now considered a mid-tier character.
 
Watched that ryu video... and many others... Will look into shiek/Villager/Ness as well.
 
friend just handed me a $20 card to get the dlc characters. :D I think I'm going to learn Ryu a good bit first just to rush down and beat the fuck out of my friends little mack.
yassssss play Ryu he's the most interesting character in the game
also little mac is bad so you should destroy all little mac players forever.

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#30 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 10:05 PM

Watched that ryu video... and many others... Will look into shiek/Villager/Ness as well.

 

friend just handed me a $20 card to get the dlc characters. :D I think I'm going to learn Ryu a good bit first just to rush down and beat the fuck out of my friends little mack.

 

Sweet, have fun. Ryu is hype as all hell. Also, your friend is a scrublord, Mac is garbage. Stand at ledge+back throw=win every time.

 

I mean
LOOK at how bad this game is
https://www.youtube....h?v=HeA0Gh7odZQ
the best movement option is to not move
this matchup makes up more than 50% of the metagame
watch as M2K wins the whole set by standing around doing nothing
he's probably not even thinking about this game, this was in summer of 2014 he was probably trying to solve the puzzle of how to beat PPMD in Melee
high level Brawl is so gross omg

 

Uair+Uair+Uair+Uair+Uair+Uair+Shuttle Loop+Uair+Uair+Uair+Uair+Uair+Uair+Tornado

 

Brawl makes me nauseous.


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#31 shrub

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 10:07 PM

Brawl is SOOOO not competitively viable. It's kinda mindblowing that it even got as big as it was. Leffen brought up on stream once that if the official version of Brawl was more like PM instead of regular Brawl, Melee wouldn't have even survived, and actually Melee's survival this long is due entirely to Brawl being such a failure of a game from a competitive standpoint. And it's true!
In Brawl, there only two viable characters that benefited from approaching EVER were Metaknight and Pika, the former being a plague on the metagame that honestly should have stayed banned, and the latter being one of the only respectable characters in the game.

I mean
LOOK at how bad this game is
https://www.youtube....h?v=HeA0Gh7odZQ
the best movement option is to not move
this matchup makes up more than 50% of the metagame
watch as M2K wins the whole set by standing around doing nothing
he's probably not even thinking about this game, this was in summer of 2014 he was probably trying to solve the puzzle of how to beat PPMD in Melee
high level Brawl is so gross omg

 

LOL. I couldn't have put it better myself.


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#32 shrub

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 06:09 PM

CV4_Xa_FKUs_AAZ3i_F_jpg_large.jpg

 

So I was right about Marth > Sheik, Peach > Falcon, YLink > DK > Link, and Puff, Peach, and Falcon not being S tier. Stuff I don't agree with though:

 

Kirby - Kirby is heaps better than Pichu, Bowser, and Ness imo. If anything, Kirby should be at the top of G, ABOVE Ness.

Dr. Mario > Luigi - Dr. Mario is a dead character. His potential is tapped, while at least Abate is doing very well with Luigi and moving the character forward. He also has more/better options for recovery and kills.

Yoshi > Luigi - Same reasons as above.

 

Other than that it looks pretty good. I think the Top to High-Mid tiers are perfect.


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#33 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 07:23 PM

Looks good, but yeah. Luigi is defs higher than Doc and Yoshi. Yoshi has a single representative, who honestly hasn't much of a splash within top 8 outside of last Apex. Luigi still has a few good players backing him, and seems to have more realistic potential.


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#34 Krevin

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 07:49 PM

 
CV4_Xa_FKUs_AAZ3i_F_jpg_large.jpg
 
So I was right about Marth > Sheik, Peach > Falcon, YLink > DK > Link, and Puff, Peach, and Falcon not being S tier.

Yeah, all of these statements have become more and more apparent over the past two and a half years. I fully agree with all of those. ICs over Falcon is interesting, I never actually considered that as a possibility but I can see it, honestly.

Stuff I don't agree with though:
 
Kirby - Kirby is heaps better than Pichu, Bowser, and Ness imo. If anything, Kirby should be at the top of G, ABOVE Ness.

This, I'm gonna argue til the death. Of the bottom four, Kirby is the only one with literally nothing going on for himself. His movement is TERRIBLE, all of his moves are low priority, most of them are really slow, and they all have small hitboxes. He dies at Jigglypuff percents with basically no way of getting KOs. His combos are all escapable, and often when attempted end up putting him in a disadvantageous position.
Ness has some movement options, viable kill moves, some other shit. Just watch HBox's Ness for proof that there's a couple things that Ness can do. Still not a viable character but ya know, not bottom.
Pichu, I would argue to be maybe even better than Ness. Melee is a movement-based game, and of the bottom 4, Pichu clearly has the best movement options. He's also the smallest target in the game, and light/floaty enough to escape a lot of combos. Pichu also has a chaingrab on fastfallers. Mango M2K 
Bowser is mostly trash. It could be argued that Bowser is actually worse than Kirby, except Bowser has a really good up B out of shield. Granted, that's all Bowser has, 1 good thing > 0 good things.
 

Dr. Mario > Luigi - Dr. Mario is a dead character. His potential is tapped, while at least Abate is doing very well with Luigi and moving the character forward. He also has more/better options for recovery and kills.

I agree, but I also think there's the fact that only one person is actually being impressive at all right now with Luigi, and all of the other Luigis aren't doing too well. It comes down to, once other Luigi mains incorporate Abate-level strategies and new tech, and once the rest of the meta starts to learn more about those things and adapt to them, how viable will Luigi ACTUALLY be? My guess is, the next official tier list (however long from now) will finally have Luigi above Doc. But for now it's largely speculation.

Yoshi > Luigi - Same reasons as above.

aMSa vs M2K (speaks for itself)

Leffen vs Overtriforce (If you don't already recognize the name, Overtriforce is one of the best European players. Not quite as good as Armada/Leffen but rivals Ice, Professor Pro, and Android for that #3 spot)

Leffen vs Professor Pro, same tournament

Lil Fumi vs Lucky (Lil Fumi doesn't actually win this one but look how close it gets! And that's against Lucky!)

Yoshi's a pretty good character man idk

 

 

Overall it's a pretty solid tier list. I'll accept it.


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#35 Leo

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 08:59 PM

can anyone point me to a good ryu guide? or even just a reference? i've tried to learn a bit on my own and have been watching trela's ryu a bit, but i'm just not getting it. he definitely has a lot going for him, but it's difficult for me to put down consistent damage. KOs are pretty easy with a well place shoryuken, but getting to the point where i can KO is what's killing me. just can't stay safe while racking up the damage.

 

and on another note is there any top player rocking dedede right now? i can't find a whole lot on him outside of just basic strategy which i already nailed down for myself. just need to see something new so i can expand my options in a close fight.

 

edit: specifically for sm4sh if possible.


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#36 Krevin

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 09:43 PM

can anyone point me to a good ryu guide? or even just a reference? i've tried to learn a bit on my own and have been watching trela's ryu a bit, but i'm just not getting it. he definitely has a lot going for him, but it's difficult for me to put down consistent damage. KOs are pretty easy with a well place shoryuken, but getting to the point where i can KO is what's killing me. just can't stay safe while racking up the damage.

 

and on another note is there any top player rocking dedede right now? i can't find a whole lot on him outside of just basic strategy which i already nailed down for myself. just need to see something new so i can expand my options in a close fight.

 

edit: specifically for sm4sh if possible.

 

This video shows a lot of standard Ryu combos, and more importantly gives a good approximation for kill %'s for each weight class. It also shows some infinites that might be escapable and/or might have gotten patched out, idk.

This video is a really good analysis from right when Ryu came out. Might not be the best idk but it has a lot of information.

This video is ZeRo's analysis of Ryu. And ZeRo is really good at this game, if you haven't noticed already, so he probably knows what he's talking about.

This video is AceStarThe3rd playing 23 minutes of For Glory as Ryu while talking about him. A lot of the information isn't useful but there's some good chunks of knowledge in there.


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#37 Karino

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 12:22 AM

Does anyone know if Cloud could be competitively viable when he comes out? I am, after all, a gigantic weeb, but I don't know if we've learned anything about his skillset yet.


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#38 Krevin

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:36 AM

Does anyone know if Cloud could be competitively viable when he comes out? I am, after all, a gigantic weeb, but I don't know if we've learned anything about his skillset yet.

It's gonna be impossible to tell until he's actually released. My guess is that he'll be somewhere in mid-tier, simply because that's usually where characters with big swords end up. But I could be wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, I played Sm4sh in tournament today for the first time since EVO.

1. I played against FOW in teams today. It went as bad as expected.

2. Is this a regional thing or do all Sm4sh scenes have a few too many players who don't wear deodorant? shit stank

3. I tried Ryu in friendlies, wasn't feeling it. I still totally think he's top tier worthy, he just isn't for me. I'll stick to playing him in every other fighting game.

4. ZSS, on the other hand, feels completely right. She's very intuitive, and definitely gonna be my main in this game. 


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#39 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 01:35 PM

and on another note is there any top player rocking dedede right now? i can't find a whole lot on him outside of just basic strategy which i already nailed down for myself. just need to see something new so i can expand my options in a close fight.

 

edit: specifically for sm4sh if possible.

 

D3 is pretty much considered low-mid tier, so there's not a lot of super high level representation... Big D is definitely the best DDD main right now, but being a Canadian player, there isn't a whole lot of footage of his play.

 

Also Jdawg from MVDA plays at Xanadu every week, and does fairly well (Although Xanadu is not exactly a high skill region as a whole).

 

https://www.youtube....q=J Dawg dedede

 

 

And Ryu is still very mucha character in development, even the highest level players are still finding new and optimal ways to use him. Until his meta advances there probably won't be much in terms of guides for playing him.

 

I'll give you a few tips as someone with a solid pocket Ryu.

 

Being safe with Ryu isn't too hard, make use of FADC (Focus Attack Dash Cancel- Double tap forward/backward while charging a Focus Attack) as an approach and a safe way to sponge dangerous hits. You shold be approaching with Short Hop Fair/Nair, and Run Shielding a lot. Hits on your shield should be countered with U-tilt/d-tilt (For high/low) as they come out on frame 3/2 respectively. Nair will be your best friend for escaping combos, as it's a Frame 4 move and the hitbox covers most of his body.

 

Kill setups are the biggest thing you'll need to get down pat, and He's definitely got the most technical, but effective. Unlike most characters where the huge buffer window makes combo timing easy, Ryu requires some pretty frame-perfect executions. Work on stringing Up-tilt into True-Shoryuken, as it'll be your B&B kill. Short Hop Nair into dash and True-Shoryu is another solid one. There are a few DI/Situation specific ones, like Nair-Nair offstage into Dair which guarentees the spike.

 

He's a tough character to learn, probably not the best if you're still learning about the game. But put in the work and Ryu is super rewarding.

 

 

 

Does anyone know if Cloud could be competitively viable when he comes out? I am, after all, a gigantic weeb, but I don't know if we've learned anything about his skillset yet.

 

From what I've seen, I can't really make much of a statement yet. There hasn't been any data/footage since the Direct. I want to say he'll be good, he has a lot of very quick moves with large hitboxes, but I'm expecting him to be just another Mid-Tier, maybe the lower end of High (In the range of 15-20th).

 

 

Also, I know this is probably not a surprise, but the Eventhubs Smash 4 tier lists is laughably innaccurate.

 

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/

 

Donkey Kong as the second worst in the game? Please. https://www.youtube....h?v=R0bpagKaDqE

And before anyone say "But it's M2K", MVD is a top 10 player in the world right now in Smash 4. Best Diddy main outside of ZeRo.

 

Other huge errors: MetaKnight in bottom 20 (Should be top 15), Yoshi is nowhere in Top 5, Mario is Top 5, maybe Top  3 depending on who you talk to.

 

I know that eventhubs runs their lists like popularity contests, but seeing as it's the only list out there right now, they should be a little more responsible in moderating it. It's so wildly off it's giving the wrong info to new players.


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#40 Krevin

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:04 PM

(Although Xanadu is not exactly a high skill region as a whole).
Man. This is so weird to me. The strength of a region in Melee and the strength of a region in Smash 4 are so disconnected. MDVA is where some really solid Melee players come from. Alternatively, Vegas is apparently a really strong region in Smash 4 and Brawl, which is funny because in Melee we're hardly recognized. And the other day I was watching a Smash 4 video where somebody mentioned that "this guy might finally put SoCal on the map" but in Melee it's hard to argue against the idea that SoCal is the strongest region in the world. It's just so weird to me.

 
From what I've seen, I can't really make much of a statement yet. There hasn't been any data/footage since the Direct. I want to say he'll be good, he has a lot of very quick moves with large hitboxes, but I'm expecting him to be just another Mid-Tier, maybe the lower end of High (In the range of 15-20th).
GimR has a really good trailer analysis HERE. It might not all be accurate - Especially since the character isn't released yet, so all of these things are subject to change, but it gives a strong idea of how Cloud will play. He seems like he has a bunch of strong, fast punishes, but all with a lot of cooldown so he gets punished hard if he doesn't land them. He doesn't seem to have a whole lot of neutral game options, and the few he does have don't seem to have a lot of follow ups.
 
 
Also, I know this is probably not a surprise, but the Eventhubs Smash 4 tier lists is laughably innaccurate.
 
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/
 
Donkey Kong as the second worst in the game? Please. https://www.youtube....h?v=R0bpagKaDqE
And before anyone say "But it's M2K", MVD is a top 10 player in the world right now in Smash 4. Best Diddy main outside of ZeRo.
 
Other huge errors: MetaKnight in bottom 20 (Should be top 15), Yoshi is nowhere in Top 5, Mario is Top 5, maybe Top  3 depending on who you talk to.
 
I know that eventhubs runs their lists like popularity contests, but seeing as it's the only list out there right now, they should be a little more responsible in moderating it. It's so wildly off it's giving the wrong info to new players.
They don't moderate it at all. It's sort of a "wikipedia" style tier list where anybody can put any votes they want. Anybody who actually knows what they're talking about knows to avoid Eventhubs because it is cancerous, which means the only people using it are scrubs who are putting their mains as losing every matchup, because they think if they complain enough people will believe that they're losing because of their character, when in reality every player beats them. And then said scrubs continue to vote for matchups that they know nothing about, like saying Yoshi beats ZSS and Diddy. Please.
It also doesn't reset after each patch, or factor in votes that are no longer relevant in the meta. The only reason Diddy isn't number one anymore is because after he got nerfed a bunch of people complained about it and voted him as being a bad character - Which isn't even true. He's not the best in the game anymore by any means but I think he's still totally viable.
Yoshi at one point was a solid character. He's still viable but not top 3 viable by any means. That would have been a stretch in his prime, even. But now he's like upper-mid tier.

The Project M tier list on eventhubs is even more ridiculous.
The real tier list is something like
S: Fox, Wolf, Falco, Roy, Marth, Sheik
A: Samus, GW, Diddy, Mario, CF, Lucario, TL, Ike, Weegee, MK, Rob, Peach, Ivy, Snake, Wario
B: Yoshi, Lucas, Olimar, ZSS, Sanic, Pika, Squirtle, Jiggs, Ganon, Charizard, ICs, Link, Mewtwo, Zelda, Kirby
C: Ness, Dedede, Bowser, Pit, DK

The Eventhubs tier list has Falco at 9th, Wolf at 16th (only one spot above Ivysaur!) Pit all the way up at spot number 3 (he hasn't been viable for the past two updates - Every move can be CC'd until ridiculously high damage, no kill options, every option that can be used in neutral game gets beat out by most things, arrows aren't a viable decision anymore, etc.), Sonic at spot number 4 (He's basically Fox but without a shine or a laser or an up smash, which are the things that make Fox top tier instead of mid tier). The whole thing is a mess.

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