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#41 Karino

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:32 PM

I might just stick with Ganondorf then, depending on how cloud turns out. Bummer city.

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#42 Krevin

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:58 PM

Cloud will probably be better than Ganondorf. Same concept, nothing but hard punishes, but his attacks all come out so fast that he might be the most viable hard-punish character.

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#43 Karino

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 10:06 PM

But is cloud an angry green man? Nah, seriously I'd be pumped if they have a similar playstyle, Ganondorf is definitely one of my favorites.

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#44 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 10:57 PM

Man. This is so weird to me. The strength of a region in Melee and the strength of a region in Smash 4 are so disconnected. MDVA is where some really solid Melee players come from. Alternatively, Vegas is apparently a really strong region in Smash 4 and Brawl, which is funny because in Melee we're hardly recognized. And the other day I was watching a Smash 4 video where somebody mentioned that "this guy might finally put SoCal on the map" but in Melee it's hard to argue against the idea that SoCal is the strongest region in the world. It's just so weird to me.

 

 

It is funny, seems like Smash 4 is thriving in areas where Brawl was a big presence, while regions with good Melee scenes have generally mediocre showings in Smash 4.

 

Socal basically only has Larry Lurr and Tyrant... that's not a lot for the undeniably strongest region in all of Melee.

 

Meanwhile Tri-State is absolutely stacked: Dabuz, Nairo, Nakat (Along with False, Keitaro, and all of the other LoF guys), JTails, Vinnie, DKWill... most of those players are Top 16 material at any given national.

 

the only region which really seems to excel in both is Florida... Melee has Hbox, Plup, Colbol, Wizzy, Gahtzu... Smash 4 has ESAM, MVD, 8-Bit Man, Static Manny, Nick Riddle... all really solid top players.

 

And yeah, Vegas is actually solid too. FOW is tied with Shaky as the best Ness in the world (IMO he's probably better, but he just never goes to tournaments).


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#45 Krevin

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 01:43 AM

It is funny, seems like Smash 4 is thriving in areas where Brawl was a big presence, while regions with good Melee scenes have generally mediocre showings in Smash 4.
 
Socal basically only has Larry Lurr and Tyrant... that's not a lot for the undeniably strongest region in all of Melee.
SoCal makes up seriously like 1/4th of the top 100. The current SoCal power ranking (which has 20 players) doesn't even include OkamiBW, and OkamiBW who proved at EVO that he was noticeably better than anybody in Vegas. Crazy.

Meanwhile Tri-State is absolutely stacked: Dabuz, Nairo, Nakat (Along with False, Keitaro, and all of the other LoF guys), JTails, Vinnie, DKWill... most of those players are Top 16 material at any given national.
 
the only region which really seems to excel in both is Florida... Melee has Hbox, Plup, Colbol, Wizzy, Gahtzu... Smash 4 has ESAM, MVD, 8-Bit Man, Static Manny, Nick Riddle... all really solid top players.
Tri-state is pretty solid in Melee actually. They've got Hax$, The Moon, DJ Nintendo, Zang, Mafia, and Emukiller. They also used to have M2K and Reno but both have since moved away.
 
And yeah, Vegas is actually solid too. FOW is tied with Shaky as the best Ness in the world (IMO he's probably better, but he just never goes to tournaments).
It's still so crazy to me how far along Vegas got into the Brawl scene. I went inactive in like early 2010, when we were barely notable at all. And I remember when we used to have a Vegas Smash forum, thinking FOW was an annoying little kid that I could probably destroy because who the fuck plays Ness. And that's what everybody else thought. But then I never got a chance to play him, disappeared for a while, start hanging out with Z and Tudor at UNLV and find out that Vegas is like hella legit now, find out FOW and SK92 were some of the top ranked players in the world, and I still can't believe it. It's fucking crazy. I played friendlies at school with Z all the time and I was keeping up with him, I honestly think I could have made it if I had stuck with Brawl and started traveling and going to out of state tourneys. But I also made the right call by not playing that game anymore.

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#46 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 04:05 AM

It's still so crazy to me how far along Vegas got into the Brawl scene. I went inactive in like early 2010, when we were barely notable at all. And I remember when we used to have a Vegas Smash forum, thinking FOW was an annoying little kid that I could probably destroy because who the fuck plays Ness. And that's what everybody else thought. But then I never got a chance to play him, disappeared for a while, start hanging out with Z and Tudor at UNLV and find out that Vegas is like hella legit now, find out FOW and SK92 were some of the top ranked players in the world, and I still can't believe it. It's fucking crazy. I played friendlies at school with Z all the time and I was keeping up with him, I honestly think I could have made it if I had stuck with Brawl and started traveling and going to out of state tourneys. But I also made the right call by not playing that game anymore.

 

I hate the isolation of living here in rural Canada. I have no one to play with, and no major scene to get involved with. There's no exposure to what is such an awesome global scene. But thems the breaks. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll get a position with the PAOC and end up in Toronto or something.

 

 

 

And not to derail a great discussion, but I'm only just getting a chance to catch up on matches from Dreamhack. Just watched this:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=nKXUmVhFifY

 

This broke my heart. I know a lot of people hate Hbox, but this is a big deal for him. It's weird seeing this, most of our top players are kinda lacking in the personality department, so post-tourney interviews are kind just dry analysis of the GF matches. But this... it's so raw and emotional. Feel bad for the guy. I've always loved Hbox, don;t like seeing him going through dark stuff like this.


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#47 Krevin

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 08:11 PM

I hate the isolation of living here in rural Canada. I have no one to play with, and no major scene to get involved with. There's no exposure to what is such an awesome global scene. But thems the breaks. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll get a position with the PAOC and end up in Toronto or something.
How's the S4 scene in Canada? I know there's some strong names from Canada in the Melee scene. KirbyKaze and Kage The Warrior are from out there, I think n0ne is up there currently...
 
  
And not to derail a great discussion, but I'm only just getting a chance to catch up on matches from Dreamhack. Just watched this:
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=nKXUmVhFifY
 
This broke my heart. I know a lot of people hate Hbox, but this is a big deal for him. It's weird seeing this, most of our top players are kinda lacking in the personality department, so post-tourney interviews are kind just dry analysis of the GF matches. But this... it's so raw and emotional. Feel bad for the guy. I've always loved Hbox, don;t like seeing him going through dark stuff like this.
THAT'S MY BOY.
I've always said it - I fucking love Hbox. He's not the most enjoyable to watch, I'll admit that, but he's still one of my favorites because he has heart. To see how much work he has put in is inspiring. Especially with Jigglypuff. Like sure, he wasn't the originator of that character and he wasn't the first one to bring her all the way up to top level play, but if it weren't for Hbox then Puff would have been forgotten about as soon as Mango dropped her.
And to see how extensively worked out the Puff vs Fox matchup has been, almost exclusively from Hbox, is also insane. People always go straight to talking about Hbox's ledge play. And there's actually more depth to it than people realize! But also, you'll notice he only utilizes that when he's already at an advantage, to prevent losing that advantage. Also play to win. But then you look at the way Hbox plays on stage, it's insane. He does this thing - No, he INVENTED this thing, where he knocks you up and lets you fall on to a platform, and hits you with this frame-perfect soft-hit uair right between your input for a tech and your contact with the platform. And the reason that's so creative and smart, is because in Melee, if you input a tech, there's this huge amount of time (a full second, I think?) where it won't let you input another tech. So it forces a missed tech, and then Hbox will follow that up with a wavedash onto platform, jab reset for a rest. He gets a guaranteed kill setup if you do exactly what you're supposed to do. And the only way out of it is to not input a tech the first time, so if Hbox recognizes that you know not to tech, he'll fake you out and not uair you, so you land on the platform with a missed tech anyways, and he can still get a jab reset into rest. It's insane. And there are so many microscopic situations like that, which he gets sooooo creative with. At any lower level of play than Hungrybox, Puff vs Fox is like a 30:70 matchup in Fox's favor, but Hungrybox has fine tuned it so hard that I think for him it's an even matchup.
I'm so fucking proud of Hungrybox. As much as I pretend to be part of Mango Nation, I'm HFam at heart.

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#48 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 12:01 AM

How's the S4 scene in Canada? I know there's some strong names from Canada in the Melee scene. KirbyKaze and Kage The Warrior are from out there, I think n0ne is up there currently...

 

Yep, n0ne is in Toronto. Great Falcon player.

 

 

Canada is weird when it comes to Smash. Aside from the sforementioned Melee players, we've got some solid players but it's mostly these random dudes recognized for something unique.

 

Big D from BC is the best Dedede main in the world.

 

We've also got big names in Brawl. V115 is one of the best Brawl ZSS players, and Toronto Joe is known for being the only entertaining Brawl MetaKnight player in the world. He's so aggro.

 

Superboomfan from Albera is the only man in the world who can contest Isai's position as the best 64 player out there.

 

Smash 4 doesn't seem to have a huge presence here. The only world class player we've got is Ally, who is proabably top 5 in the world. (Zero-Nairo-Esam-Dabuz-Ally-Mr.R)

 

 

Here in Newfoundland there's a group of guys in St. John's who play Smash 4 weekly at a local game shop, but St. Jonh's is 5 hours away. That's the downside to having such a huge country with such a low population density.


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#49 Krevin

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 11:28 PM

Yep, n0ne is in Toronto. Great Falcon player.
 
 
Canada is weird when it comes to Smash. Aside from the sforementioned Melee players, we've got some solid players but it's mostly these random dudes recognized for something unique.
 
Big D from BC is the best Dedede main in the world.
 
We've also got big names in Brawl. V115 is one of the best Brawl ZSS players, and Toronto Joe is known for being the only entertaining Brawl MetaKnight player in the world. He's so aggro.
 
Superboomfan from Albera is the only man in the world who can contest Isai's position as the best 64 player out there.
 
Smash 4 doesn't seem to have a huge presence here. The only world class player we've got is Ally, who is proabably top 5 in the world. (Zero-Nairo-Esam-Dabuz-Ally-Mr.R)
 
 
Here in Newfoundland there's a group of guys in St. John's who play Smash 4 weekly at a local game shop, but St. Jonh's is 5 hours away. That's the downside to having such a huge country with such a low population density.

Oh shit I forgot Ally was canadian!
And last I checked Superboomfan was ranked the best 64 player in the world, and I think even Wizzrobe outranks Isai at this point. It's hard accepting a reality where Isai isn't the supreme overlord of 64, but whatever :/

And yeah I know what you mean about the huge country with low population density. When I lived in Anchorage, we had like 5 or 6 active Melee players in the city. The big tournaments we would hold all ended up being like 4+ hours away, and were the size of the local monthlies we have here in Vegas.

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#50 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 03:54 PM

And yeah I know what you mean about the huge country with low population density. When I lived in Anchorage, we had like 5 or 6 active Melee players in the city. The big tournaments we would hold all ended up being like 4+ hours away, and were the size of the local monthlies we have here in Vegas.

 

The Smash Bros. NL facebook group has 800 members, but in reality there are only ~50 people in the whole province who play seriously and attend tournaments.

 

We've got solid representation in the East and West, but here in Central there's nothing. Coming this January my cousin and I are going to start trying to host monthlies. The church my cuz attends has a gymnasium that they'll rent out for $50 a night, so with an entrance fee of like $3-5 it wouldn't be any trouble to cover it. We know for sure we'll get about 10-15 to attend.

 

It's kind of ambitious, but I wanna give it a shot.


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#51 Krevin

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 11:48 PM

The Smash Bros. NL facebook group has 800 members, but in reality there are only ~50 people in the whole province who play seriously and attend tournaments.
 
We've got solid representation in the East and West, but here in Central there's nothing. Coming this January my cousin and I are going to start trying to host monthlies. The church my cuz attends has a gymnasium that they'll rent out for $50 a night, so with an entrance fee of like $3-5 it wouldn't be any trouble to cover it. We know for sure we'll get about 10-15 to attend.
 
It's kind of ambitious, but I wanna give it a shot.
Dude do it. IMO, the most important piece of a region is the monthly tournament series. Large events that aren't recurring generally just create hype for a moment, while weeklies and recurring small events generally serve as an in-between of lab time and actual competitive play. At weeklies, I'll pull out pocket characters, I'll try out weird counterpicks (bring a space animal to Yoshi's Story even though I play Peach, try out Fountain in the Sheik vs Marth matchup, etc.), and I'll make other risky decisions because there isn't really that much on the line. But monthlies give the whole region a reason to try hard on a regular basis. They validate all the learning you get from lab time and they help the region push eachother's maximum potential, not just fine tune the level of play that they've already reached. Monthlies are so important.

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#52 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 12:56 AM

^Gotta work on actually passing this semester first though.

 

 

 

On another note, we've hit a new level in Smash 4. I guess the game is finally reaching a point where we've got the knowledge to do it, but optimized combos are becoming a thing. Players are getting Perfect-Pivots consistently andnow that the frame data on auto-cancels is availabe, we're gonna start seeing some sick stuff.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=-UR6nTRv298


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#53 Krevin

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 01:36 AM

yeah, it'll be sick in a few years when more than a couple people are on this level. I think my favorite part of Melee is seeing old 2005/2006 videos of like, grand finals at MLG and other top level play like that. And then realizing that if 2006 Ken, 2006 PC Chris, 2006 Isai, etc. got time warped to present day, they wouldn't even break pools at a super major. It's a cool contrast. S4 could potentially live long enough to see stuff like that.

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#54 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 04:21 AM

yeah, it'll be sick in a few years when more than a couple people are on this level. I think my favorite part of Melee is seeing old 2005/2006 videos of like, grand finals at MLG and other top level play like that. And then realizing that if 2006 Ken, 2006 PC Chris, 2006 Isai, etc. got time warped to present day, they wouldn't even break pools at a super major. It's a cool contrast. S4 could potentially live long enough to see stuff like that.

 

I hope it does, it's already cemented itself as a better competitive title than Brawl was at its peak.

 

My speculation, is that Smash is going to be two schools from now on. The Melee purists, who will stick with Melee because of a dedicated love its meta and mechanics, and the players who will migrate every time a new title drops.

 

I'm definitely in the latter. I adore Melee, but I always just gravitate towards the newest game in the series. Same seems to happen with a lot of the top Smash 4 players, they all moved over from Brawl.


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#55 Krevin

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 05:35 AM

I hope it does, it's already cemented itself as a better competitive title than Brawl was at its peak.
 
My speculation, is that Smash is going to be two schools from now on. The Melee purists, who will stick with Melee because of a dedicated love its meta and mechanics, and the players who will migrate every time a new title drops.
 
I'm definitely in the latter. I adore Melee, but I always just gravitate towards the newest game in the series. Same seems to happen with a lot of the top Smash 4 players, they all moved over from Brawl.
Yeah, I totally saw this coming. And what with the death of PM, the weird subculture of Smash that stuck with that game will finish dying off in no time. Though by now, almost all of the PM scene had either transitioned into Melee, or jumped over to S4 when it came out.
PM did serve as a great tool for the community in its time though. It generated SO MUCH hype when 3.0 was released (because Mewtwo and Roy, and you didn't even need to hack your Wii!), which brought a lot of former Brawl players - across all skill levels - out of retirement, and then served to help transition them into real smash games that were not Brawl. I was part of the wide array of players who went Brawl -> PM -> Melee, there were also a lot of players who went Brawl -> PM -> S4, because PM resparked their interest in the game, got them excited about competitive play, and then when S4 came out they transitioned over quickly and immediately started looking at it from a competitive perspective. I love that.
By the time S4 came out, Brawl was honestly not very commonly played. It was a lot like 64 where a lot of people dabbled in it but the only people who really played it seriously were the top level players. I don't think S4 is going to be dead like that years from now if/when S5 comes out, and I think if Nintendo keeps following suit with the improvements they made from Brawl to S4, the "current game" side of the Smash family will stay just as big as the Melee side. Which is cool, because Melee is guaranteed to live forever and you never know if other Smash games are going to survive past the hype.

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#56 Krevin

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 10:45 PM

Fam. Did you peep that Nintendo Direct?
If you didn't, here's a summary.

1. Detailed information confirming everything we already knew about Cloud
2. Corrin from FE Fates will be a playable character. I didn't catch all of it coz I was playing Pokemon but the biggest takeaway I got was that Corrin has a shit ton of range, and one of his/her attacks impales the opponent. You can hold the move after contact to prevent yourself or your opponent from being able to move, and you have a few different options for movement after the attack (cancel, jump, and I think there's an option to second hit or something like that). This will be hella sick in teams.
3. Bayonetta confirmed. Conceptually, it seems like they will have a hard time not making her broken. Her attack speed and movement speed both seem above average, her hard punishes seem good, but what really stands out is her combo game. Every move seems to have great range and hitstun and set up for other moves. Pair that with her ability to air dash like an anime fighter for a ton of air time to string together big combos in the air. To top it off, all four of her limbs have gun attachments, and if you hold the button when you land an attack, Bayonetta will follow up the attack with gunshots. So even your resets yield positive gains.
4. Midgar seems like it will be a fun stage in casuals. The stage itself is essentially just Battlefield, and the entry hazards are subtle enough that I think it will still be enjoyable. I don't see this being a competitively legal stage, but I'll fuck around on it.
5. Bayonetta's stage might be competitively viable! Not much information was given about it, but it was confirmed that there are angels flying around in the background. It was not, however, confirmed that the angels will actually interact with the players. Beyond that the stage is reasonably sized, taking different platform layouts at different points in time. So far there's nothing about the stage that makes it not seem legal.

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#57 The Great Red Bear

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 03:19 AM

Watched it with my cuz, we pretty much just squealed the whole time.

 

Corrin: Meh. I was hoping for more FE reps, but definitely not like this. Combined with my skepticism of Fates, I'm underwhelmed.

 

From a character standpoint, looks cool as all hell. Seems to have some truly unique moves, and that impale is nuts. Can't wait to explore what options you have coming out of it. That chainsaw sword looks brutal, but also a very strange design choice. At least I can pick female.

 

Bayonetta: BROKEN AF. I mean, holy shit. I sincerely hope that most of those chains they showed are escapable with airdodges/DI. If not, she might be Brawl MK level busted. Her aerial options are endless, and a hitbox the siize of Bowser that spikes? As well as a near infinite recovery that has a hitbox, and the option to stop any combo at any point to convert it into ranged attacks? Good God, they went all out on this character. From what we've seen, she's got a ZSS level combo/setup game, but without the risk of ZSS' grab.

 

Falling Clock Tower stage looks like it might be at least considered for legal, assuming the stuff in the background doesn't interact with players. Random floating platforms won't be a big deal, Town and City is legal. Seems like at least a decent counterpick stage.

 

 

Cloud: Been playing him for the last couple hours, this character has mad potential. I can't say he's top-tier material just yet, his combo game is kinda weak. Nearly every move has significant startup, and his angles and high BKB are not follow-up friendly. However, he's got God-tier mobility. Like, honest to goodness dash-dancing by just tapping left and right as Dash animation ends, and his dash is in the top 10 for speed. You can juke so hard.

 

The Limit Break is where this character takes a turn for broken. The Limit Break charges with down-b and charges faster the higher your %, on top of passively increasing as your % increases. The kill power this unlocks is obnoxious, not to mention giving him an invincible recovery.

 

Cloud is defs high-tier, but I can't say he's busted. Looking forward to seeing what people can find with his moveset.


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#58 Krevin

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 04:49 AM

Watched it with my cuz, we pretty much just squealed the whole time.
 
Corrin: Meh. I was hoping for more FE reps, but definitely not like this. Combined with my skepticism of Fates, I'm underwhelmed.
 
From a character standpoint, looks cool as all hell. Seems to have some truly unique moves, and that impale is nuts. Can't wait to explore what options you have coming out of it. That chainsaw sword looks brutal, but also a very strange design choice. At least I can pick female.
I think Corrin was a reeeeeeeeeally good choice on their part, just because of the dragon nonsense. Speaking of which did you see that back air? But I guess I can see how this might be disappointing if you're already disappointed in Fates.
Bayonetta: BROKEN AF. I mean, holy shit. I sincerely hope that most of those chains they showed are escapable with airdodges/DI. If not, she might be Brawl MK level busted. Her aerial options are endless, and a hitbox the siize of Bowser that spikes? As well as a near infinite recovery that has a hitbox, and the option to stop any combo at any point to convert it into ranged attacks? Good God, they went all out on this character. From what we've seen, she's got a ZSS level combo/setup game, but without the risk of ZSS' grab.
 
Falling Clock Tower stage looks like it might be at least considered for legal, assuming the stuff in the background doesn't interact with players. Random floating platforms won't be a big deal, Town and City is legal. Seems like at least a decent counterpick stage.
Her recovery doesn't seem too overwhelmingly good, based off of what we saw. It seems like her vertical mobility is very slow, and that the her up B is very telegraphed. It's too early to say but I don't know that she's going to have the whole "guaranteed recovery" part that MK had in Brawl. On top of that, it seems like her gun at the end of attacks might work like Fox's laser, just tacking on damage. Which is still good, but if I'm wrong and it's like Falco's laser with hitstun, that'll be a huge game changer.
I'm not saying she's not looking like a hella good character, but I see potential flaws. We'll see how it goes.
 
 
Cloud: Been playing him for the last couple hours, this character has mad potential. I can't say he's top-tier material just yet, his combo game is kinda weak. Nearly every move has significant startup, and his angles and high BKB are not follow-up friendly. However, he's got God-tier mobility. Like, honest to goodness dash-dancing by just tapping left and right as Dash animation ends, and his dash is in the top 10 for speed. You can juke so hard.
 
The Limit Break is where this character takes a turn for broken. The Limit Break charges with down-b and charges faster the higher your %, on top of passively increasing as your % increases. The kill power this unlocks is obnoxious, not to mention giving him an invincible recovery.
 
Cloud is defs high-tier, but I can't say he's busted. Looking forward to seeing what people can find with his moveset.
Dash dancing!? In a real Smash game made after Melee!?

So I'm watching streams of Cloud and I don't know. I'm not that impressed. M2K said he expects Cloud will probably be somewhere near the bottom of high tier, but it's still really early so it's hard to tell. I think that's a really generous positioning personally. His recovery is soooooo bad. And the moves that he has that are viable don't really kill, so he has to struggle really hard to get a stock. I mean it's hard to tell because the character just came out and I haven't even played him yet I've just seen other people play him, but I see a lot of weaknesses and I haven't seen a whole lot of good things from him. It seems like he kinda just gets destroyed by shields. I've been saying it since the trailer was released by really only see this character being viable in teams.

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#59 Leo

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 11:37 AM

Cloud's most reliable kill move for me, so far anyway, has been Uair. It doesn't kill until like above 100% but it has a pretty big hitbox. I also got destroyed by the limit break down special at around 60% because I got hit in the air. His recovery turns into a kill move after limit break too, but it's fairly risky. Not worth using unless you're guaranteed a hit. I've also noticed his side smash has some nice launching power, and it's multi hit which is nice. At the edge of the stage I was getting KOs on lighter characters around 70% without charging at all. Also his neutral b has some range. Pretty useless outside of a zoning tool tbh, but it does that pretty well. Like mav said though the limit breaks give him all the killing power you could want. I think my biggest complaint is about the range of cross slash. You almost have to wait until someone dashes into you too use it.


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#60 Scuiriot

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 04:59 PM

Played him for a good like 54y387950721 hours last night.

 

His Forward smash can kill at 70% on light and like 90/100% on mediums uncharged.

his DSmash has ko potential too, but 90/100% for light and like 130 or so for medium iirc.

his Uair is Godly, his Nair is like Ike's and great, as is his Bair shit comes out fast as fuck.

His Dair and Fair both have spike frames and Fair is very safe.

Also his Up B spikes as well, I was ledge guarding with it, just be careful of the forward motion he does so that you're still on the stage cuz he wont grab the edge if you hit them.

His Neutral B is good for zoning and gimping somewhat on recoveries, it also helps you get back to the stage, in air it gives you a slight boost up and you keep your forward momentum, and it can be used to protect your return somewhat.

Forward B is garb so hard, the KO potential it has during limit break is great, but it's so hard to hit. I pref Neutral B during limit break, unless I spot dodge and Down B them.

His Bair is also a great kill move for higher percents.

 

His throws are mostly worthless none kill and only down throw can be comboed into if you land the short hop, fast fall bair, then you can kind of go from there for a few other hits if you can up tilt or forward tilt the other player after the bair due to their di.

speaking of tilts, his d tilt is great for closing gaps.

His 123 aaa combo seems to have  great priority at least against his own moveset lol, I'm sad I haven't been able to AA, cancel  Forward B yet. but I'm also slow in my mechanics I'm sure it's possible.

He Has a Lot of SHIELD damage too.

 

And yes his Dash Dance is godly, he can Also slide like a mother fucker. Is DaCs still a thing?

 

 

on a side note, I have my Y set to grab, and when I do a dash and turn pressing grab he seems to always through out the forward tilt :'( Same with the Jab combo I press AAY or AAZ and it just continues the combo p.q


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